Ukraine Thread

[Montmorency]

Sorry? In Ukraine, the war started because a fringe of Nazi decided the negotiated agreement were not good enough and stormed the Parliament. Now, you are saying it is better to kill people than negotiate, well, that is your opinion, not mine.

That did not happen as you describe it. They broke into the parliament at night and started breaking stuff. Afterward, they gathered around the parliament and did nothing but agitate. Probably because there were only a few thousand of them in the entire country - not enough to affect events to any degree. At any rate, afterward the Right Sector was neutered as a political force and by now almost all of its current and former membership are pre-occupied with directly engaging the separatists in combat.

I am saying that the social unrest was high jacked by Nazi

How? What goals of theirs have actually been achieved that were not also goals of the Maidan movement in general? As I said, the far-right overall has only lost influence since the end of the old regime.

followed by very bad decisions which lead to a revolt in some parts of Ukraine and an annexation of part of its territory.

I don't think any particular decision of EuroMaidan had anything to do with the annexation of Crimea or the armed uprising in the Donbass. These were just long-standing geopolitical failsafes that Russia triggered to weaken the new Ukrainian government and show resolve to the West. If a few thousand Neo-Nazis were such a threat to Ukraine or Russia that these acts would have been taken as snap decisions, then why was it never a problem before 2014?

After all, most of the pro-Russian fighters in Ukraine now were political fascists themselves, and Russia has been notorious for its Neo-Nazi groups and gangs since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

If they accept ideologies which are against the Human Right Declaration, they are not.

So the "liberal democracies" of the world are not in fact democracies, and you're cool with that? You'd be living in one right now: the UK.

[Gilrandir]

Well done. You know all your propaganda.

As well as you do.
And the most fascinating thing about all this discussion is that you consider those who you don't agree with to be totally under the influence of propaganda, while you exempt yourself from the said influence. Go on deluding yourself.

That did not happen as you describe it. They broke into the parliament at night and started breaking stuff. Afterward, they gathered around the parliament and did nothing but agitate. Probably because there were only a few thousand of them in the entire country - not enough to affect events to any degree. At any rate, afterward the Right Sector was neutered as a political force and by now almost all of its current and former membership are pre-occupied with directly engaging the separatists in combat.

How? What goals of theirs have actually been achieved that were not also goals of the Maidan movement in general? As I said, the far-right overall has only lost influence since the end of the old regime.

I don't think any particular decision of EuroMaidan had anything to do with the annexation of Crimea or the armed uprising in the Donbass. These were just long-standing geopolitical failsafes that Russia triggered to weaken the new Ukrainian government and show resolve to the West. If a few thousand Neo-Nazis were such a threat to Ukraine or Russia that these acts would have been taken as snap decisions, then why was it never a problem before 2014?

After all, most of the pro-Russian fighters in Ukraine now were political fascists themselves, and Russia has been notorious for its Neo-Nazi groups and gangs since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

So the "liberal democracies" of the world are not in fact democracies, and you're cool with that? You'd be living in one right now: the UK.

I think you are wasting your time. All these arguments have been in use for over a year, yet they fell on deaf ears.

I once said about the way we consume the news. At the very first encounter with the information an evaluational filter "gets installed" (determined by a whole gamut of background and worldview factors) which then channels the whole stream of facts into one way assessment only. All later developments and arguments, however sensible they may be, are not able to change the ultimate attitude of a person. If you follow this and related thread(s), can you tell me how many people participating in the discussion changed their initial stance? So trying to persuade others in things that involve both ontological AND axiological components is useless. If you remove the latter you can probably prove something. But such discussions are held in the Front Room, not here.

[Gilrandir]

Concerning MH-17:
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-a...ry-of-defence/

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I suppose the real question is, why does Brenus love Putin and Russia when Reussia is very clearly out to grab territory.

Perhaps he saw Reggie Yates' Extreme Russia: Episode 1, where a young girl in her twenties took a piece of paper, folded it in half and said "this is Russia now" then unfolded it and said "this is what Russia should be, and it's time to gather Russia back together".

Not an exact quote but the message was crystal clear - for many people in "Russia" their definition of "Russia" is actually the USSR. There are a significant number of people who see Russia as having a manifest destiny to rule a particular geographic region which is actually multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, and un-interested in being Russian.

[GenosseGeneral]

It seems like escalation is likely. It's not yet on Western sources (everyone is still busy with FIFA), but Ukrainian and separatist sources report new, heavy fights. Tensions had been growing over the past days, but this is possibly the worst we've seen since Debaltseve. Live ticker (in Russian, unfortunately):http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/352...marynky-onlain Under attack is a place called марьинка донецк область (just copy into google maps) It seems like the columns reported by Reuters last week were indeed heading to Ukraine.
Which is interesting in light of the fact, that the project Novorossiya, which claimed also other territories besides Luhansk and Donetsk, was only recently abandoned by the Kremlin. It also confirmed Donetsk and Luhansk's status as part of Ukraine.
Edit: Minsk is now fully dead. The Ukrainian General Staff just announced the return of heavy artillery to the frontline. According to them, the attack began at 4 a.m. this morning, using a two-digit number of tanks and more than a thousand soldiers, supported by heavy artillery.

This is bad. Really bad.

[Sarmatian]

Concerning MH-17:
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-a...ry-of-defence/

You'll never really stop to publish propaganda stories, will you?

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...a-1036874.html

Spiegel retracted the story. Analysts called it bogus. The person who created the site which belingcat used to "analyze" the data says belingcat analysis is an example "of how not to analyze satellite imagery"...

And you present it as some kind of fact? Why? There are thousands of dubious blogs we can link to that "prove" that this is all work of Illuminati, Zionists or aliens. Try to raise yourself above an average internet troll. This is one of the rare places where one can have a serious and rational political discussion (although nowhere near the level it used to be). Don't ruin that. Get some standards.

[Gilrandir]

Edit: Minsk is now fully dead.

It was dead a couple of days after it had been signed after Lugandoneans captured Debaltseve. Western powers turned a blind eye on it hoping that it will stay Putin's appetite.
But it really doesn't change anything. Do you think the West is going to do anything about it (except expressing grave concern, of course)? Lately I have been greatly concerned about Europe expressing no grave concerns for quite a time. I wonder where is the red line Europe is constantly talking about.
Edit: Strelkov reported Surkov's (Putin's aide) recent visit to Donetsk.

You'll never really stop to publish propaganda stories, will you?

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...a-1036874.html

Spiegel retracted the story. Analysts called it bogus. The person who created the site which belingcat used to "analyze" the data says belingcat analysis is an example "of how not to analyze satellite imagery"...

I saw an article and linked it. Do you want me to search the Internet for hours to prove or disprove it? I don't know how propagandistic you or others may find it. Take it or leave it.

[Brenus]

"I suppose the real question is, why does Brenus love Putin and Russia when Reussia is very clearly out to grab territory." Well, it won't change much for you to try to answer to the wrong questions. It won't be the first time...

"Take it or leave it": All coming from your "sources" I leave it. When you will have more reliable sources than social media, I will reconsider.

[Sarmatian]

I wonder where is the red line Europe is constantly talking about.

Germany, where it has been for the last 80 years.

I saw an article and linked it. Do you want me to search the Internet for hours to prove or disprove it? I don't know how propagandistic you or others may find it. Take it or leave it.

There was no need to spend hours searching the internet. The link was in the second comment on that very blog, easily noticeable at even a glance.

Similarly, it was easily noticeable that it was a propaganda blog, with nothing of value to add. I know that linking dubious blogs/text as proof that aliens built the pyramids or whatever else is your thing is all the rage on the internet since its inception, this is one of the rare boards that tends to have a slightly higher standard of discussion. So, yes, you should take a minute or two to assess the quality of the content you're posting.

[Strike For The South]

It must be tough living in Eastern Europe. Every generation or so the number of drunks in Russia reaches critical mass and then get unleashed upon those poor people.

[Gilrandir]

"Take it or leave it": All coming from your "sources" I leave it. When you will have more reliable sources than social media, I will reconsider.

I don't remember my posts containing links to any of the social media. Even if there are, they are exceptional. Unless you understand "social media" in a different way.

this is one of the rare boards that tends to have a slightly higher standard of discussion.

You derail another thread (I thought it was my agenda) by offering a discussion on my style of posting. Probably you see it essential to take me down a peg or two. So now I have (at least) a double reputation: the Thread-derailer and the Forum-spoiler.

You present the Forum history as one of a downfall from the noble golden past (where sages exchanged their wisdom, their elusive discourse being unfathomable to other mortals) into the abyss of ignorance, cheap sensationalism and propaganda-mongering. And the only person who is responsible for it is me (since I never saw you criticize others for it). And the only person who stands guard on the brink of the abyss is you.
So perhaps it is one of the following: either it is wildly flattering for me as a person who is alone able to ruin an impregnable, solid and age-long edifice or the exceptional quality of discussion here is a delusion - it is no better and no worse than you may find elsewhere.

So, yes, you should take a minute or two to assess the quality of the content you're posting.

Mostly I try to do that. But in any case "quality" and "assessment" are subjective and arbitrary categories, so each should determine them himself.