Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

Don't be to apologetic for the UPA/OUN. Communism also had a noble cause, yet we denounce it last but not least because of its methods. Well, at least outside of Russia.

As I have said many times (and which Brenus refuses to see), I have no great sympathy for UPA and Bandera. I realize the limited and biased character of their worldview and dubious and/or criminal nature of some of their deeds. But they were products of their time. And if we speak of say, Volyn massacre, we can't say that ALL UPA MEMBERS participated in it. And Bandera spent most of his active political life in Poish prison and Sachsenhausen. Most of those who criticize UPA and Bandera don't know that. I would like people to know all bad and good sides of things they are so opinionated about before they can make sober conclusions. So I don't see the reason to hate the now old men who didn't take part in any atrocities, but fought all those who they considered invaders - both Germans and Soviets.

Stick with Taras Shevchenko, Ivano Franko or Yaroslav the Wise if you want to build monuments.

Do you know that Shevchenko wrote many poems (including Haidamakas)in which he glorifued those who massacred jews and the Polish?

http://www.ukrainianwinnipeg.ca/shev...ews-haidmakas/

Some modern historians believe that Yaroslav the Wise assasinated his brothers Boris and Gleb and later attributed their murder to another brother Svyatopolk (later nicknamed for it the Accursed).

http://ria.ru/history_tochki/20100801/260888588.html

Bottomline: ANY HISTORIC FIGURE has very shady sided to him. So what is to be done - no glorification of anyone?
My answer - we should know about both the glorious and the ignoble and then praise him for the former and condemn for the latter.

Anyway, far right forces played a disproportionally large role in Maidan revolution.

Of course, you have numerical data on general participation of people in Maidan events and on the number of far rightists among them so that we could confirm that your judgement is sound.

They were brought en masse from Lvov to Kiev to be used as shock troops.

Again, if you have the data on the number of people brought from Lviv to Kyiv and on the percentage of the far rightists among them and on their quantitative representation within the shock troops, we would consider them. Until then these are arbitrary claims.

[Gilrandir]

And Tagliavini resigned:
http://www.sott.net/article/297447-O...kraine-resigns
Does it spell the demise of negotiations?

[Sarmatian]

Of course, you have numerical data on general participation of people in Maidan events and on the number of far rightists among them so that we could confirm that your judgement is sound.

My judgement is sound. I didn't say they were majority, I said "they played disproportionally large role". Try to read.

Again, if you have the data on the number of people brought from Lviv to Kyiv and on the percentage of the far rightists among them and on their quantitative representation within the shock troops, we would consider them. Until then these are arbitrary claims.

There's been links to articles in this and previous thread. You can look for yourself. There are ample sources on the net. It is a matter of pride in Lviv that the Lviv State University was empty during Maidan, because all students were in Kiev.

[Gilrandir]

My judgement is sound. I didn't say they were majority, I said "they played disproportionally large role". Try to read.

To prove the soundness of your judgement of "disproportionally large role" you should give the said proportion and the disproportionate character of the role must be further demonstrated by respective figures. Moreover, you should explain what proportion you consider normal (10%, 20% or what) and why. Since no such proportion or any figures were offered, let me doubt the soundness of your judgement.

There's been links to articles in this and previous thread. You can look for yourself. There are ample sources on the net. It is a matter of pride in Lviv that the Lviv State University was empty during Maidan, because all students were in Kiev.

The latter claim is an overstatement. How do you know that ALL students were there? Do you have any data based on the class registers (manifesting attendance) and then another document vouching that all the absent at classes students of, say, the law school of Lviv University, asked for a leave to go to Maidan or put signatures under a solemn vow to go there and then still another one to show that all those who cut classes in Lviv were registered on Maidan? If I were you, I would say that this is a sensationalist claim (Russian TV showing a footage of empty classrooms whose attendants have gone to the nazi putsch in Kiev) and a cheap shot. But I wouldn't.

But it is not even important. No one denies that the Western regions of Ukraine were heavily represented on Maidan. What you do is claiming that ALL of their representatives were far rightists. To sustain such a claim one must produce proofs.

[Sarmatian]

To prove the soundness of your judgement of "disproportionally large role" you should give the said proportion and the disproportionate character of the role must be further demonstrated by respective figures. Moreover, you should explain what proportion you consider normal (10%, 20% or what) and why. Since no such proportion or any figures were offered, let me doubt the soundness of your judgement.

Do you really expect me to quantify something like that? Like say 36.47% overall influence? Seriously? You're not trolling, you're being serious here?

The latter claim is an overstatement. How do you know that ALL students were there? Do you have any data based on the class registers (manifesting attendance) and then another document vouching that all the absent at classes students of, say, the law school of Lviv University, asked for a leave to go to Maidan or put signatures under a solemn vow to go there and then still another one to show that all those who cut classes in Lviv were registered on Maidan?

It is a figure of speech. It is not meant to be taken literally. Surely some disagreed, some were injured or sick, some went home, some just abhorred violence, some supported it but were to cowardly... It doesn't mean EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. It means a majority, a very large number of them

If I were you, I would say that this is a sensationalist claim (Russian TV showing a footage of empty classrooms whose attendants have gone to the nazi putsch in Kiev) and a cheap shot. But I wouldn't.

Whatever makes you happy.

But it is not even important. No one denies that the Western regions of Ukraine were heavily represented on Maidan. What you do is claiming that ALL of their representatives were far rightists. To sustain such a claim one must produce proofs.

Aaaaaaand thank you!!! We have a winner! Give the man a cigar!

Precisely my point. And you knew that from the beginning and you could have just agreed with me two posts ago and save us this trouble.