Another terrible race motivated attack.

[Husar]

So, Nazi's were around for at most two decades and the shock delivered to expunge them has taken 70 years and counting to get over. The South has a history stretching back about four centuries, how long do you think it would take to wipe the culture clean and rebuild it?

Around the same time because that is about the time it takes for the people who lived under the former wrong system to die out?

[Greyblades]

Only if you go the slash and burn, rip children from thier mothers breast method that takes you from the moral high ground and straight into the laurentian abyss.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Around the same time because that is about the time it takes for the people who lived under the former wrong system to die out?

If that were true we would have succeeded in wiping out the Welsh and the Cornish over a century ago.
The South is not a "system" it is a culture.

Compare to the Roman attempts to wipe out Christianity, or the multiple vigorous attempts to wipe out Judaism.

Nazism itself was a relatively short lived political ideaology, so it was relatively easy to wipe out, because you didn't have to attack Germany's underlying culture (which remains largely intact).

[Montmorency]

Personally, I think we should put Swastikas on everything, and we should especially encourage the JEwish Community to integrate the design into the floors etc of Synagogues - it historically appears in some texts and art associated with Judaism.

If we did that it would cease to be an effective Neo-Nazi standard.

Oh yeah, that's such a trivial undertaking right there, compared to taking fresh oaths of allegiance from one-time traitor-provinces.

You are advocating the destruction of Southern Culture, symbolism, traditions... etc.

Technically for all cultures everywhere.

because of a perceived ingrained racism.

No. Again, the radical reorganization of human civilization on the planet isn't pertinent to what we're trying to describe in the moment.

Anyone can display any flag they like - unless they happen to be public properties or institutions. That's really not a lot to ask, and anyone who protests that it is must essentially admit themselves willing to submit to the most radical devolution any organization might be willing to institute within any set of borders - because despite contemporary shenanigans and grumblings, there is no country in the world with a stronger central government than the United States. Nowhere in the world are local, regional, and national (i.e. federal) so tightly-enmeshed and interwoven as they are in the US - and don't even think to bring up some edge cases like mini-islands and city-states.

I am not joking when I say that the very concept of central authority is at stake here. The American executive must not waver.

[Husar]

Only if you go the slash and burn, rip children from thier mothers breast method that takes you from the moral high ground and straight into the laurentian abyss.

If that were true we would have succeeded in wiping out the Welsh and the Cornish over a century ago.
The South is not a "system" it is a culture.

Compare to the Roman attempts to wipe out Christianity, or the multiple vigorous attempts to wipe out Judaism.

Nazism itself was a relatively short lived political ideaology, so it was relatively easy to wipe out, because you didn't have to attack Germany's underlying culture (which remains largely intact).

The Nazis also had children, the turning point was when the whole population was forced to admit the crimes they let happen in their country. Some were forced to walk through concentration camps and "clean them up", bury the dead etc. A similar method would have to be found for the south so that they realize how wrong their ideas are and begin to not teach their children the old and wrongful ways. Currently the federal government does not put enough effort into crushing the racist myths like the ones we have seen in this thread.
It's not about wiping it out, it's about making them face the problems with their culture so that they will want to change themselves. At the moment they perpetuate the myths about how great it is and noone really opposes or challenges them.

That you think about ripping children away from mothers is worrying though.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The Nazis also had children, the turning point was when the whole population was forced to admit the crimes they let happen in their country. Some were forced to walk through concentration camps and "clean them up", bury the dead etc. A similar method would have to be found for the south so that they realize how wrong their ideas are and begin to not teach their children the old and wrongful ways. Currently the federal government does not put enough effort into crushing the racist myths like the ones we have seen in this thread.
It's not about wiping it out, it's about making them face the problems with their culture so that they will want to change themselves. At the moment they perpetuate the myths about how great it is and noone really opposes or challenges them.

Except that, again, you're only talking about things a generation deep, and only a small proportion of Germans were actually involved in Nazisim directly, or actively supported Nazi genocides. There's ample evidence from the diaries of German soldiers that they were disgusted by the Nazis, but they were honourable to a fault and loyal to their country.

That's completely different to crushing hundreds of years of history - something the North actually tried with "Reconstruction". They flat out failed and Southern Stats had to be forced to integrate by Federal Law.

That you think about ripping children away from mothers is worrying though.

Don't make this about my character, this has nothing to do with what I believe, I'm telling you how it can be done - if you feel it's justified.

I know the history, I didn't make this up - it was a common practice in most the world until about 50 years ago, the aim being to create homogeneous nation-states out of disparate peoples. One of the best expressions of the phenomenon and its impact on children and their families was an Australian Film called "Rabbit Proof Fence", there was also a US film about the residential schools there, but I can't remember the name of it.

[Pannonian]

I know the history, I didn't make this up - it was a common practice in most the world until about 50 years ago, the aim being to create homogeneous nation-states out of disparate peoples. One of the best expressions of the phenomenon and its impact on children and their families was an Australian Film called "Rabbit Proof Fence", there was also a US film about the residential schools there, but I can't remember the name of it.

Or even cultural genocide in its purest form, as practised by Genghis Khan. Kill all males above a certain height (and thus age). Enroll all remaining males in a homogenised culture defined by you. Go and do stuff under the name of the new culture.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh yeah, that's such a trivial undertaking right there, compared to taking fresh oaths of allegiance from one-time traitor-provinces.

My understanding is that, at the time, the Federal Government had no legal mechanism to prevent a state secededing.

Anyway, that was my personal opinion, but I understand why it's not likely to catch on. That doesn't change the fact that if Israel really wanted to stick it to the Nazi's they'd surround the Star of David with a Halo of Swastikas.

Technically for all cultures everywhere.

Except yours - your culture is like your accent, you think you're the baseline and everyone else is deviant.

It's your culture that makes you want to wipe out all cultures.

No. Again, the radical reorganization of human civilization on the planet isn't pertinent to what we're trying to describe in the moment.

Everybody who tried such a "radical reorganisation" is remembered a monster because everybody resisted and they had to kill thousands to cow the rest.

Anyone can display any flag they like - unless they happen to be public properties or institutions. That's really not a lot to ask, and anyone who protests that it is must essentially admit themselves willing to submit to the most radical devolution any organization might be willing to institute within any set of borders - because despite contemporary shenanigans and grumblings, there is no country in the world with a stronger central government than the United States. Nowhere in the world are local, regional, and national (i.e. federal) so tightly-enmeshed and interwoven as they are in the US - and don't even think to bring up some edge cases like mini-islands and city-states.

I am not joking when I say that the very concept of central authority is at stake here. The American executive must not waver.

Sorry, is the Executive currently doing something?

[Husar]

Except that, again, you're only talking about things a generation deep, and only a small proportion of Germans were actually involved in Nazisim directly, or actively supported Nazi genocides. There's ample evidence from the diaries of German soldiers that they were disgusted by the Nazis, but they were honourable to a fault and loyal to their country.

That's completely different to crushing hundreds of years of history - something the North actually tried with "Reconstruction". They flat out failed and Southern Stats had to be forced to integrate by Federal Law.

History is only in peoples' heads and we have far more modern ways to mess with them than the people in any of the previous attempts had at their disposal. At one point it may become possible to just overwite their memories with different ones.
Either way I was talking about a very big and proactive effort, not just dropping some leaflets.

Something like switch all the TV programs to federal propaganda and facts about how evil the south was half the day. Some may resist at first but once they are crushed the others will slowly start to change their beliefs. Korea was one country at some point and now the entire north is brainwashed to believe the Kims are angels and everybody else is an enemy. Don't pretend it is not possible.

You could start to strip them of benefits, make shops that you can only enter wearing a union flag etc.

Don't make this about my character, this has nothing to do with what I believe, I'm telling you how it can be done - if you feel it's justified.

You keep misreading me. I quoted both you and Greyblades and that part was especially aimed at Greyblades, indicated by the fact that I used the same words he did.

[Montmorency]

Except yours - your culture is like your accent, you think you're the baseline and everyone else is deviant.

It's your culture that makes you want to wipe out all cultures.

Playing fast and loose with terms like that only leads to trivial tautologies.

Everybody who tried such a "radical reorganisation" is remembered a monster because everybody resisted and they had to kill thousands to cow the rest.

Connected to the above, my position on the issue is simply that if the perpetuation of humanity for its own sake is the baseline objective, then absolute autocracy is the most effective long-run form of governance. Autocracy and social reorganization have been attempted before, but never absolutely and never on a global scale.

Sorry, is the Executive currently doing something?

Come again?

[a completely inoffensive name]

I love how removing symbols of oppression, renaming streets and removing racist police forces is akin to ripping babies from their mothers.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I hope some people actually look at the policies of radical reconstruction during the 1860s and 1870s. It was because of these attempts at destroying southern culture that blacks achieved for the first time representation in office. Moderate Republicans at the time felt that simply encoding into law the rights of blacks would be enough to protect blacks once the South re-integrated into the Union. What became of that was Jim Crow and the perversion of the law through inaction by racist police and loopholes written into law by racist state governments. There are more than a few districts in the deep south who still have not elected a black representative since the 1880s, despite the demographics of the area.

You people have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the insidious nature of racism against blacks in the South and midwest.

[PanzerJaeger]

You people have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the insidious nature of racism against blacks in the South and midwest.

I'm wondering if you do. The South you want to reconstruct appears to be more caricature than reality, decades behind the curve.

It's actually fascinating how close to Dylann Roof's line of reasoning you've come in this thread without even realizing it.

[Greyblades]

I love how removing symbols of oppression, renaming streets and removing racist police forces is akin to ripping babies from their mothers.

...a way to misread my post. You wanna do it within your lifespan you gotta get nasty, taking their flags and place names will do nothing but poss people off.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Calm down guys, no need to be nasty here. Comparing me to a murderer and calling me a dumbass hurts my feelings.

[Greyblades]

Calm down guys, no need to be nasty here. Comparing me to a murderer and calling me a dumbass hurts my feelings.

Yeah that was going too far. Sorry... though I don't remember comparing you to a murderer.

[a completely inoffensive name]

though I don't remember calling you a murderer.

That was Panzer who did that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Playing fast and loose with terms like that only leads to trivial tautologies.

Using more words doesn't seem to get through to you so I'm mostly just trying to discredit your ideas in view of everyone else.

It's important to oppose totalitarian ideas, in fact it is essential.

You are the product of a certain culture, something you will be largely unaware of unless you have studied it. Your particular reaction to your culture is to want to "destroy all culture" but that's not actually possible, and what you would merely be doing is forcibly homogenising all cultures so that they are indistinguishable.

Such has been tried before in the Old and New World and pretty much every attempt qualifies as state brutality.

Connected to the above, my position on the issue is simply that if the perpetuation of humanity for its own sake is the baseline objective, then absolute autocracy is the most effective long-run form of governance. Autocracy and social reorganization have been attempted before, but never absolutely and never on a global scale.

Absolute Autocracy is the best form of government when the Autocrat is enlightened, the worst when he is a Tyrant.

Compare Augustus and Caligula.

Come again?

What is the American Executive doing about racism in the US?

Anything?

at all?

[Husar]

Absolute Autocracy is the best form of government when the Autocrat is enlightened, the worst when he is a Tyrant.

Computers can be very enlightened.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

History is only in peoples' heads and we have far more modern ways to mess with them than the people in any of the previous attempts had at their disposal. At one point it may become possible to just overwite their memories with different ones.
Either way I was talking about a very big and proactive effort, not just dropping some leaflets.

Something like switch all the TV programs to federal propaganda and facts about how evil the south was half the day. Some may resist at first but once they are crushed the others will slowly start to change their beliefs. Korea was one country at some point and now the entire north is brainwashed to believe the Kims are angels and everybody else is an enemy. Don't pretend it is not possible.

You could start to strip them of benefits, make shops that you can only enter wearing a union flag etc.

OK, right, now I know you're joking.

Southerners have to wear union flags or not be served in shops... like a Star of David.

Also, I know that you know North Korea kills any "citizen" who is in any way deviant, either bullet to the back of the head or a death camp.

In fact, North Korea is the perfect illustration of my point - a society reshaped by brutality and terror.

Computers can be very enlightened.

No, they can't. As things stand computers just run calculations, the calculations humans tell them to. You could theoretically extrapolate what the world's greatest leaders would do given a set of variable from their speeches, writing etc. but what happens if you program in Ghandi and Julius Caesar and their opinions conflict?

Computer goes crazy and kills everyone by crucifying them whilst giving them free bread?

That's assuming your programmers are anything like enlightened, most modern computer programmers are poorly educated in a general sense, they don't study philosophy or metaphysics or literature.

[Husar]

OK, right, now I know you're joking.

Southerners have to wear union flags or not be served in shops... like a Star of David.

Yes, it was intentionally over the top, but consider that being black is like wearing a star of david that you were born with and can't lay off in some areas. That might just be why some people want to change that.

Also, I know that you know North Korea kills any "citizen" who is in any way deviant, either bullet to the back of the head or a death camp.

In fact, North Korea is the perfect illustration of my point - a society reshaped by brutality and terror.

I thought your point was that it can't be done quickly, NK just illustrates that it can be done if the will is there.

No, they can't. As things stand computers just run calculations, the calculations humans tell them to. You could theoretically extrapolate what the world's greatest leaders would do given a set of variable from their speeches, writing etc. but what happens if you program in Ghandi and Julius Caesar and their opinions conflict?

Computer goes crazy and kills everyone by crucifying them whilst giving them free bread?

That's assuming your programmers are anything like enlightened, most modern computer programmers are poorly educated in a general sense, they don't study philosophy or metaphysics or literature.

Prejudices, the human brain is just a somewhat more flexible computer with plenty of faults of its own. If one of them reads Ayn Rand it may become just as ruthless. A computer would merely have to lack the need to be superior to its peers in order to provide an improvement.

[Montmorency]

Using more words doesn't seem to get through to you so I'm mostly just trying to discredit your ideas in view of everyone else.

So, just pure sophistry then?

It's important to oppose totalitarian ideas, in fact it is essential.

roflmao

You are the product of a certain culture, something you will be largely unaware of unless you have studied it. Your particular reaction to your culture is to want to "destroy all culture" but that's not actually possible, and what you would merely be doing is forcibly homogenising all cultures so that they are indistinguishable.

Now you're either equivocating or deeply-confused about how you are using the word "culture".

Absolute Autocracy is the best form of government when the Autocrat is enlightened, the worst when he is a Tyrant.

if the perpetuation of humanity for its own sake is the baseline objective, then absolute autocracy is the most effective long-run form of governance.

What is the American Executive doing about racism in the US?

Anything?

at all?

Is - is this like a spoof question or something?

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'm wondering if you do. The South you want to reconstruct appears to be more caricature than reality, decades behind the curve.

It's actually fascinating how close to Dylann Roof's line of reasoning you've come in this thread without even realizing it.

So I looked into the criteria that the studies based their findings and it is misleading imo. The worst cities are the worst because they are cities built around manufacturing which are now crumbling, or they are metropolitan areas which are super expensive to live in like Chicago, and LA. The south fares well under their criteria only because industry has moved there due to lack of unions and because the area has a much lower cost of living. I'm sure whites in the south are faring better than those in Detroit and Milwaukee at this point.

Edit: best example from the interactive map that was on the USA today article is the southern California rankings. Ventura county is ranked extremely high. Riverside county is ranked extremely high. LA county is ranked extremely low. Ventura and riverside area is generally where you go for cheap housing and a crappy commute. This study says nothing in particular about how black people are treated and everything to do with cost of living.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, it was intentionally over the top, but consider that being black is like wearing a star of david that you were born with and can't lay off in some areas. That might just be why some people want to change that.

Not universally true, I think, but even as it is true, the problem is universal to the US, not just the South.

I thought your point was that it can't be done quickly, NK just illustrates that it can be done if the will is there.

My point was that is cannot be done without committing great evil and therefore should not be attempted.

Prejudices, the human brain is just a somewhat more flexible computer with plenty of faults of its own. If one of them reads Ayn Rand it may become just as ruthless. A computer would merely have to lack the need to be superior to its peers in order to provide an improvement.

The human brain is infinitely more complex than any computer and we don't really understand how it works, how it produces conscience or conciousness.

a conscience is essentially for a ruler, especially an unrestrained Autocratic one.

[Husar]

Not universally true, I think, but even as it is true, the problem is universal to the US, not just the South.

I said "in some areas" thinking that this means it is not universally true and does also not include or exclude anywhere, but maybe I was wrong.

My point was that is cannot be done without committing great evil and therefore should not be attempted.

What if it can be done without great evil but takes 70 years or more?

The human brain is infinitely more complex than any computer and we don't really understand how it works, how it produces conscience or conciousness.

a conscience is essentially for a ruler, especially an unrestrained Autocratic one.

We had a thread on that subject...
Also infinitely is a big word, it's probably just a matter of technological progress.

[Greyblades]

I wouldn't trust a computer to run a society, if you can't trust a man with power why would something made by man be any more trustworthy?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So, just pure sophistry then?

Sophistry implies I don't believe what I'm saying - I do - but I'm debating you for the benefit of everyone else, not for your benefit.

Get over it.

roflmao

You think wanting to eliminate all cultures and form One World Government isn't a totalitarian idea?

Now you're either equivocating or deeply-confused about how you are using the word "culture".

All our beliefs are a product of the culture we are raised in, modified by our personality and life experience. So if you want to "eliminate all cultures" that belief is a product of your cultural context - it's actually a not uncommon product of the culture of American Exceptionalism, which is itself the last gasp of the 19th Century "white Man's Burden".

Let me give you an example -

Murder - we often say that all societies condemn murder, but this is in fact not true. One example of this is the Thugee (from whence Thug), an Indian sub-culture/cult which worshipped Kali and went about murdering travellers.

I said "in some areas" thinking that this means it is not universally true and does also not include or exclude anywhere, but maybe I was wrong.



What if it can be done without great evil but takes 70 years or more?



We had a thread on that subject...
Also infinitely is a big word, it's probably just a matter of technological progress.

[Husar]

I wouldn't trust a computer to run a society, if you can't trust a man with power why would something made by man be any more trustworthy?

It doesn't get tired, it doesn't get angry, it can take all choices into account and weigh them against one another without bias and so on.
Of course if you want to fully simulate a human brain, you'd have to simulate all these flaws as well, but why would you?
And it could even be able to develop and grow itself, take feedback into account in order to improve processes and decision making.

[Greyblades]

It doesn't get tired, it doesn't get angry, it can take all choices into account and weigh them against one another without bias and so on.
Of course if you want to fully simulate a human brain, you'd have to simulate all these flaws as well, but why would you?
And it could even be able to develop and grow itself, take feedback into account in order to improve processes and decision making.

It would by its very nature ìnherit the biases prejudices and moral code of the creator(s). without the inbuilt emotion and empathy that the human brain comes prepackaged with there is no real way to guarantee that it will overcome the flaws in its creation (which would be inevitable ina computer complex enough to run a society on its own).

Assuming that it isn't accidentally (or intentionally) programmed to view mankind as cattle or something, there's still the problem that once it was turned on and left to regulate itself it would eventually and inevitably succumb to programming flaws. I do not believe that humanity is capable of creating a perfect infallible computer code for something so complex, meaning that computer's programming will inevitably degrade whether it takes a year or a millenia to happen.

This could be remidied if it had some sort of human overseer or troubleshooter who can step in and fix it when these flaws present themselves but if it requires a human being to operate then you will effectively be giving control not to the computer but to the whims of the technician. In which case why bother giving up control of society?

Basically giving up all control to a god computer would be a nice idea but I do not trust humanity to make it without screwing it up and once rule of society ends up in the Computers control mankind will find reclaiming control harder the longer the computer has been operating.

[Strike For The South]

1. That infographic is the same one stormfront uses to recruit. The internet really is quite a small place after all. It's racist and misleading. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

2. I think I was misconstrued. The civil war was the death throes of a way of life. Slavery was the center piece of that life, as Ironside pointed out with his google fu. However, in April 1865, it wasn't just that slavery that was destroyed. Post WWII that destruction was captured in academia for the first time and that is when you begin to see the use of the battle flag again. The modern use of the battle flag comes out of that lost cuasism of post war America. Using civil war era quotes to explain why the battle flag came back into prominence is not the way to go. The modern use of the battle flag is tied to the post war era and integration more than it is Antietam.

The idea you can change a few street names and some how "denazify" the feeling for a man like Robert E Lee makes me fear for this forums critical thinking skills. It is akin to the people flying the battle telling a black guy to get over slavery and segregation. You're just on the otherside.

Panzer is right. The standard liberal defense of high crime rates is quite frankly wrong and the fact it keeps getting parrotted is just ignorance. I think there are other reasons for the disparity and don't share his kind of social nihilism but to sit here and howl about how it's all about class is kind of uniquely European.