Canada's Ugly Secret

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It were the people from proper Europe who liberated the rest from roman oppression and paved the way for a network of wonderful, peaceful yet glorious nation states, the ultimate step in human development.

There's really no way to paint the Fall of Rome as a positive step in Human development. You realise that the germanic Barbarians were the ones who overstressed the Pricipate's economy and caused it to reform into the Dominate, paving the way for centuries of feudal drudgery, right?

While it's not fair to modern Germans there is a reason why your people were painted as the monstrous "Hun"

Central Europe is still Europe whereas that island is really quite special geographically and the people are very, very special unlike all the others.

You're just jealous because some of my ancestors had Roman Citizenship and yours didn't.

[Husar]

There's really no way to paint the Fall of Rome as a positive step in Human development. You realise that the germanic Barbarians were the ones who overstressed the Pricipate's economy and caused it to reform into the Dominate, paving the way for centuries of feudal drudgery, right?

While it's not fair to modern Germans there is a reason why your people were painted as the monstrous "Hun"

"Barbarians" is a roman term indicative of it's own hubris that, together with an unhealthy potion of corruption and greed, ultimately led to its fall at the hands of said "barbarians". The feudal system wasn't that much worse than what the romans did if you consider all factors. Wasn't it largely the idea of absolute power given by religion that gave feudal lords an excuse to do what they want rather than the feudal idea of an exchange between security provided by the lord for work provided by his subjects? The romans could also do what they wanted with everyone who happened to be a slave and were quite bloodthirsty "barbarians" just for fun and giggles. The aqueducts and so on were nice but didn't make their behavior any more civilized no matter how much they liked to pretend it. The caesars were also not that much better than a feudal king/emperor and that after all the bad experiences they had made with kings already.

You're just jealous because some of my ancestors had Roman Citizenship and yours didn't.

I don't know how far you traced your family tree back but even if you could prove that, I'd rather take pride in my ancestors fighting and beating the USSPQR than them having been part of such a corrupt empire that expanded by killing off the neighbors and subduing them to its rule.

[Pannonian]

I don't know how far you traced your family tree back but even if you could prove that, I'd rather take pride in my ancestors fighting and beating the USSPQR than them having been part of such a corrupt empire that expanded by killing off the neighbors and subduing them to its rule.

You have the right to be proud of your history of fighting against the USSPQR. But shouldn't you look for another term to describe yourself, other than European? Since, after all, you fought hard and well to keep yourself out of that world, much harder than we did in England. Unlike you, we failed to resist, and so got folded into Europe like the French.

[Husar]

You have the right to be proud of your history of fighting against the USSPQR. But shouldn't you look for another term to describe yourself, other than European? Since, after all, you fought hard and well to keep yourself out of that world, much harder than we did in England. Unlike you, we failed to resist, and so got folded into Europe like the French.

No, why? I see European largely as a geographic term and the roman empire was part of Europe but not the be all end all of what makes Europe. There's no need to make up new terms if there already is one that everyone understands. To call only the roman areas Europe seems a bit weird nowadays, even if the Romans did that.

[Gilrandir]

To call only the roman areas Europe seems a bit weird nowadays, even if the Romans did that.

If we do, then Turkey, Syria, Israel, the Lebannon, Jordan, Egypt, Lybia, Algeria, Tunisia, Marocco are Europe as well.

[Husar]

If we do, then Turkey, Syria, Israel, the Lebannon, Jordan, Egypt, Lybia, Algeria, Tunisia, Marocco are Europe as well.

I meant only the areas of Europe that were roman, not all roman territory.
Although now that I looked it up for 10 secs, it would indeed get a bit odd if we were to use roman names: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(Roman_province)

[Pannonian]

I meant only the areas of Europe that were roman, not all roman territory.
Although now that I looked it up for 10 secs, it would indeed get a bit odd if we were to use roman names: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(Roman_province)

Whether or not we use the classical geography of Europe to define inclusion, surely we can use it to define exclusion, ie. that Germans are not Europeans. After all, that's your game at the start of this discussion, wasn't it?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"Barbarians" is a roman term indicative of it's own hubris that, together with an unhealthy potion of corruption and greed, ultimately led to its fall at the hands of said "barbarians".

Hundreds of years of constant attacks and barbarian incursions progressively eroded Rome Civil society, resulting in militarisation and the loss of collective Civil Right.

The feudal system wasn't that much worse than what the romans did if you consider all factors. Wasn't it largely the idea of absolute power given by religion that gave feudal lords an excuse to do what they want rather than the feudal idea of an exchange between security provided by the lord for work provided by his subjects? The romans could also do what they wanted with everyone who happened to be a slave and were quite bloodthirsty "barbarians" just for fun and giggles.

Religion largely tried to restrain Feudal Lords, their caprice came from the lack of Civil Law (as provided by SPQR) and the social upheavals of the Renaissance is largely a rediscovery of Roman Law and its application to contemporary society.

The aqueducts and so on were nice but didn't make their behavior any more civilized no matter how much they liked to pretend it. The caesars were also not that much better than a feudal king/emperor and that after all the bad experiences they had made with kings already.

At least in Rome you couldn't be executed for being a homosexual - that was largely a capital offence in barbarian cultures.

I don't know how far you traced your family tree back but even if you could prove that, I'd rather take pride in my ancestors fighting and beating the USSPQR than them having been part of such a corrupt empire that expanded by killing off the neighbours and subduing them to its rule.

Far enough to know some of my ancestors were Welsh cattle drovers.