Another terrible race motivated attack.

[Husar]

it isn't a fact though - prior to European interference they had thriving cultures and complex societies - don't fall into the assumption a lack of technology meant a lack of society.

Saying what, I know there are established civilizations there my appartment is filled with African art and ceremonial weapons, the Louvre would be jealous of a few.

So what were you arguing about?

Doesn't mean that they aren't hopelesly lagging behind when it comes to just about everything.

And that Europeans destroyed their civilizations and social orders and forced a New World Order upon them that was basically fitted to the european way of life and designed to keep them down as second or even third class colonial citizenslaves could have nothing to do with their current problems? Because North Korea and Vietnam also turned into major players on the world stage after their respective wars. Japan is looking to a bright future and the Greeks were also always useless and never invented anything.

[Gilrandir]

I mean, look at North Africa... Compare that to Scandinavia...

In one place we have orderly citizens building welfare states...

In one place we have absolute chaos.

There were times (say, of the zenith of Khaliphate) when one could say it was the other way around.

my appartment is filled with African art and ceremonial weapons, the Louvre would be jealous of a few.

Now I know who of the forumers practises voodoo. Let all his opponenets beware!

[Fragony]

And that Europeans destroyed their civilizations and social orders and forced a New World Order upon them that was basically fitted to the european way of life and designed to keep them down as second or even third class colonial citizenslaves could have nothing to do with their current problems? Because North Korea and Vietnam also turned into major players on the world stage after their respective wars. Japan is looking to a bright future and the Greeks were also always useless and never invented anything.

that is why the outcome comes first, you aren't denying anything if you do, everything is possible and plausable.

[Husar]

that is why the outcome comes first, you aren't denying anything if you do, everything is possible and plausable.

Why don't we close down our schools and wait for all the wonderful outcomes that are surely still possible and plausible?

[Fragony]

Why don't we close down our schools and wait for all the wonderful outcomes that are surely still possible and plausible?

Why would we do such a thing

[Greyblades]

I'm getting tired of the constant chip on your shoulder dude. I opened a topic on the removal of the Confederate flag and the extent to which racist symbols and practices should be removed, particularly in the south. This clearly wasn't as tired as you claim since more respectable people in here like strike and Panzer responded in kind with opinions regarding the degree to which we blame southern culture when it comes to institutional practices and public backlash in the aftermath of tragedies. Others like PVC and monty also brought up points about the morality and efficacy of attempts to alter culture as an outsider.

It is not my fault that you cant separate issues as broad as 'race' into multiple questions to tackle individually. Just like you can't seem to shut the **** up about gamergate every time video games are discussed in a serious manner. The only thread where people stay on topic (Ukraine) is by far the most active and largest thread. So yeah, excuse me for being a tad annoyed at seeing another thread once again end in 40 posts between kad and husar or you and husar.

Christ even by my standards you are whiny.

If your long term memory could extend further than six months you'd know that every racial shooting debate turns into this without intervention. There's been plenty of developments you could have steered the conversation with but you have failed to present one, so frankly you've brought this on yourself.

Here's a bone: a bunch of idiots are calling for everything confederate to be removed:

New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu calls for removal of Lee Circle statue.

Group calls for removal of Confederate monument from Lake Eola Park.

‘Gone with the Wind’ should go the way of the Confederate flag.

This whitewashing is even threatening to spill into other centuries:

Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

And sadly its starting to actually influence people outside the hugbox:

Dukes of Hazzard Toy Car Axed Amid Confederate Flag Controversy



You want to keep on topic, talk about the topic instead of pissing and moaning.

No disrespect to Husar BTW, keep fighting the good fight.

Dont forget to work shaft there buddy.

[Greyblades]

Oh and by the way, while you were bitching about the seasonal massacre and subsequent pointless race debate, this was fastracked to the president's desk two days ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-...#United_States

Fortunately it's not my country so I can laugh at your race baited ass with impunity.

[Husar]

Why would we do such a thing

Weren't you claiming that we cannot blame a different history for the problems that exist today?

[Sir Moody]

Removing the flag from the state government building was a good move and rightfully demanded (since it gave the impression the state government was endorsing a racist regime).

Removing it from historical monuments is nuts - the civil war still happened and the flag is entirely appropriate on these monuments...

[Strike For The South]

[Beskar]

It's true as Puerto Rico will be a state soon.

[PanzerJaeger]

Yeah, I'm not sure how the Stars and Stripes holds up under the same standard. Certainly ethnic cleansing, and arguably all out genocide, is on the same level as slavery or worse. Nothing about the current rush to purge all symbols of the Old South stands up to even basic intellectual scrutiny... It's just reactionary populism. It's never enough to just say 'what a terrible tragedy, I'm glad all efforts were made to capture the killer'. The usual suspects always use these isolated, statistically insignificant incidents to push agendas that are at best only tangentially related. What about the cross... the star and crescent? Is there any symbol in widespread use that doesn't offend someone?

[Husar]

The usual suspects always use these isolated, statistically insignificant incidents to push agendas that are at best only tangentially related.

Isn't that normal as far as terrorist attacks are concerned?

[a completely inoffensive name]

The stars and stripes was not created specifically as a symbol of imperialism or cleansing. Say what you will about the atrocities done under the union flag, the stars and bars is a creation born from slavery and was chosen to identify a nation that held the truth about "the inferior nature of negros".

[Sarmatian]

Yeah, I'm not sure how the Stars and Stripes holds up under the same standard. Certainly ethnic cleansing, and arguably all out genocide, is on the same level as slavery or worse. Nothing about the current rush to purge all symbols of the Old South stands up to even basic intellectual scrutiny... It's just reactionary populism. It's never enough to just say 'what a terrible tragedy, I'm glad all efforts were made to capture the killer'. The usual suspects always use these isolated, statistically insignificant incidents to push agendas that are at best only tangentially related. What about the cross... the star and crescent? Is there any symbol in widespread use that doesn't offend someone?

Cry me a river. That flag is:

1) symbol of slavery
2) symbol of armed rebellion against USA

If number 1 is debatable (in my opinion it isn't, no amount of dressing up can make it), number 2 point should be enough to ban it for forever and ever.

[Greyblades]

Cry me a river. That flag is:

1) symbol of slavery
2) symbol of armed rebellion against USA

If number 1 is debatable (in my opinion it isn't, no amount of dressing up can make it), number 2 point should be enough to ban it for forever and ever.

Ban for who?

[Sarmatian]

Ban for who?

For everybody in the US of A.

[Strike For The South]

The stars and stripes was not created specifically as a symbol of imperialism or cleansing. Say what you will about the atrocities done under the union flag, the stars and bars is a creation born from slavery and was chosen to identify a nation that held the truth about "the inferior nature of negros".

The stars and bar is the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia. It is not the flag of the CSA. The stars and stripes was born from slavery as well, those men very much believed in the inferiority of negros, and the men whom oversaw it's creation were the spearhead on a continent wide ethnic cleansing.

For everybody in the US of A.

On the inside, all Europeans are dirty little fascists.

[Sir Moody]

For everybody in the US of A.

I wouldn't go that far.

banning it from being flown at Government buildings is fine and justified - banning Joe public from flying it if they want is a no no

it infringes their rite to be a backwards racist if they want to

[a completely inoffensive name]

The founding Fathers were more diverse than that. You can find it in the language that many wished to suppress or remove slavery. The constitution gave slavery protection for only twenty years at which point congress banned the import of new slaves as soon as the protection expired. These compromises and the actions of early congress show more nuance than you give them.

[Sarmatian]

The stars and bar is the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia. It is not the flag of the CSA. The stars and stripes was born from slavery as well, those men very much believed in the inferiority of negros, and the men whom oversaw it's creation were the spearhead on a continent wide ethnic cleansing.

It all boils to 50 shades of grey - sure, I guess someone will be insulted by a Unicef flag, or feel wronged by someone or something the flag represents, but we can not use that as an excuse.

I don't believe that only racists like that flag, and I do agree there are people who like that flag and hate slavery and racism, but that is not a good enough reason to keep it. I'm sure there are other ways to express love for southern culture.

On the inside, all Europeans are dirty little fascists.

You know I can't resist you when you go full Dixie on me...

I wouldn't go that far.

banning it from being flown at Government buildings is fine and justified - banning Joe public from flying it if they want is a no no

it infringes their rite to be a backwards racist if they want to

I wouldn't care much.

Maybe this is because I grew up where I grew up and experienced it all. Symbols are powerful tools.

[Strike For The South]

The founding Fathers were more diverse than that. You can find it in the language that many wished to suppress or remove slavery. The constitution gave slavery protection for only twenty years at which point congress banned the import of new slaves as soon as the protection expired. These compromises and the actions of early congress show more nuance than you give them.

And the CSA was more diverse than that but it doesn't change the centerpiece for either side.

I don't believe that only racists like that flag, and I do agree there are people who like that flag and hate slavery and racism, but that is not a good enough reason to keep it. I'm sure there are other ways to express love for southern culture.

In theory it can not and does not fly over any government buildings. South Carolina got around that by designating something as a "memorial". I'm all for that, treason should have consequences.

My bigger issue is the deliberate whitewashing of history.

You know I can't resist you when you go full Dixie on me...

:)

[a completely inoffensive name]

And the CSA was more diverse than that but it doesn't change the centerpiece for either side.

Was it? I am willing to hear the case that the CSA was more than an attempt by gentry to preserve regional economics based on slave labor.

[Strike For The South]

Was it? I am willing to hear the case that the CSA was more than an attempt by gentry to preserve regional economics based on slave labor.

More than half the of the CSA did not secede until Lincoln called for volunteers to crush the rebellion. The civil war settled the state sovereignty question once and for all. The Hartford Convention, The Nullification Crisis, The whiskey rebellion were all times in the past when states invoked sovereignty (and the spirit of the revolution) against the feds.

The nation had left the south behind and the south decided it wanted no part of the nation any longer. This was not a settled question at the time (hell, it's not even settled today.) If the Confederacy allows the re supply of Ft.Sumter, it's entirely possible that the Union would not have drummed up enough support to crush the revolt. Before the war it was the United States are, After the war it was the United States is.

I would rather just recommend you books.

[Strike For The South]

Lets be clear. We are not talking about the civil war. The current political shitstorm that is brewing came about in the 50s and 60s when the dixiecrats began to use the star and bars as desegregation began. The flag fell out of use for nearly a century after the war.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Go ahead and recommend some books and I will start buying them this week.

[Strike For The South]

James Mcpherson's "battle cry of Freedom" is still the best single volume on the war. Truly all you need for the wartime itself (buy you're going to want more).

Bruce Cattons "Centenial series" was written to comemorate the 100th anniversary of the war.Uses much more primary source material than Foote. Generally what all the old people say "got them into the war"

Tony Horwitz "Confederates in the Attic"

That's 8000 pages of pretty standard stuff and generally where people will get their talking points from in day to day life. Also since you're going to be on amazom and my birthday is coming up, do you mind picking me up HW Brands: "A restless colossus"?

These lectures are not bad either https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PunB...F7549F2D39E590

[Greyblades]

Oh, Apple, you cowardly worm.

[Strike For The South]

Shamefully ripped from another forum

EASTERN CAMPAIGNS

- Peninsula Campaign and Seven Days: To The Gates of Richmond by Stephen Sears
- Second Manassas: Return to Bull Run by John Hennessy
- Antietam: Landscape Turned Red by Stephen Sears
- Fredericksburg: The Fredericksburg Campaign by Francis O'Reilly
- Chancellorsville: Chancellorsville by Stephen Sears
- Gettysburg: anything by Stephen Sears, Edwin Coddington Noah Trudeau, Harry Pfanz, and a bunch of others
- Overland Campaign: the series by Gordon Rhea

WESTERN CAMPAIGNS

- Shiloh: Shiloh: Bloody April by Wiley Sword
- Perryville: Perryville by Kenneth Noe
- Murfreesborough: No Better Place to Die by Peter Cozzens
- Chickamauga: This Terrible Sound by Peter Cozzens
- Chattanooga: The Shipwreck of Their Hopes by Peter Cozzens
- Atlanta Campaign: Decision in the West by Albert Castel
- Nashville Campaign: Confederacy's Last Hurrah by Wiley Sword

[Brenus]

"Oh, Apple, you cowardly worm.": Agree. We had the same move when Nazi symbols were taken off, even from Plane Kit modelling... It won't last. Common sense will come back.