After years of pain and humiliation Greece may exit Euro AND EU... PVC says...

[InsaneApache]

Whilst there are those here that blame the Greeks for 'cooking the books' to get into the Euro, don't forget that the PTB decided to allow them to join, knowing that the books had been done to a turn at gas mk 7.

You see to these people the 'project' is all' It must go on regardless. Ever closer union. What was is that Juncker said? Oh yes....“If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue”.

Spoken like a true believer in democracy.

To force people into poverty, hunger and disease for an ideal is, sadly, something we've seen too often these last hundred years. What I find amazing is that there are some on these boards that not only defend that reasoning but support it.

....and some folks wonder why I want us out of this crypto-fascist organisation. Make no bones about it. The EU is anti-democratic and corporatist.

[Fragony]

Juncker is much creepier, quote is something like this 'people don't understand what we are doing, so we are going to press on until the point where there is no turning back.' Quote is not accurate, sure about the 'gin-tonic please' though

I didn't get it right it was out the top of my head, some more of that notoriously permanently drunk creep

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...uotations.html

[Husar]

A real testimony to the EU; so incompetent not even bribes can make rich nations want a part of it.

I was only talking about one nationthat really doesn't want to be part of it, your argument is severely lacking and may even explode in your face when you consider that the one nation that complains the most is also the only one that gets bribed. Crybabies I say...

....and some folks wonder why I want us out of this crypto-fascist organisation. Make no bones about it. The EU is anti-democratic and corporatist.

Given that it has reigned in several corporate schemes which were bad for consumers and has, unlike most national governments, actually fined corporations for acting against market rules which theoretically also exist in the individual countries, I wonder how you arrive at this conclusion? The only corporations it may worship are banks, but that should be right up your alley. What would be left of London (and therefore England) if one removed the banks?

Juncker is a lawyer from a micro country that is just a huge bank (a bit like London) and provides mostly services for corporate tax evasion, so what can you expect?

[Fragony]

You can expect what should be expected if something is an idealogical projects first. I feel sorry for the Greeks, I never wanted this for them and I still don't. It's nonsense that the Greeks are being helped, banks who made stupid investments are.

Of course it's totally fine to really screw the Greece because of the federalist dream, and leave everybody with debts because of really poor investments. How about fuck you EU, sounds great to me at least. Can't help thinking of Greece being the kink in the cable of the EU and a democratic reamagening.

[rory_20_uk]

For banks to benefit, first off the Greeks had to borrow money. They were not coerced into doing this - they just tend to spend a lot more than they bring in through taxation.

Then they needed to lie on audit accounts for a long time so they can still borrow cheap money to spend at low interest rates.

Up until now, most of the money was private lending since most government debt is held privately by individuals / banks etc.

Then the government admits they were lying for years, the books are as good as fakes. The cost of lending goes up since people are worried that they'll not get their money back and people sell at a discount to get the hell out of the Greek economy.

The state needs people to take their debt so the local banks need to buy more and more of it. Eventually this is too much so then Europe needs to start buying close to worthless debt since the Greeks pull their own money out of banks and the bank credit to debt ratio goes off.

So, finally as in the UK the banks receive new money which wipes out all the existing shareholders - who in essence loose all their money. Those bad people like private investors and pension funds.

The only winners are the staff at the bank since in all but name the bank is a new bank with all the previous shareholders owning a tiny share - when the banks have been refloated it wasn't the previous shareholders who were given back the shares to compensate for the lost value..

[Kagemusha]

There are 5 countries in the world without national debt.

Here how it works: http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html

and here how its developing Globally: http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

[Sarmatian]

Tsipras urged Greeks on TV to vote No on Sunday.

Meanwhile, unofficial polls conducted show that Greeks will likely vote Yes, astonishingly. I admit I'm surprised, I expected a landslide No victory.

Maybe getting a taste of mess they're gonna be in changed their opinion.

[Greyblades]

I was only talking about one nationthat really doesn't want to be part of it, your argument is severely lacking and may even explode in your face when you consider that the one nation that complains the most is also the only one that gets bribed. Crybabies I say...

Crybabies implies futile reisistance against inevitability, yet here we are, our membership is valued so much as to earn the only discount, hardly futile.

Seems like the EU thinks it needs us more than we need it.

[Crandar]

Meanwhile, unofficial polls conducted show that Greeks will likely vote Yes, astonishingly. I admit I'm surprised, I expected a landslide No victory.

Their opinion has never changed, since the majority was always in favour of staying in the Eurozone, despite insisting that austerity should end. They always considered the return to a national currency as a bigger threat to them than the austerity measures.

Therefore, as a classical example of the immaturity of the Greek people, they contradict themselves and CORAL, the most accurate representative of their childishness also contradicted itself spectacularly, with the referendum and the embarassing renegotiations being the inevitable tragicomical result of its failure.

[Brenus]

"Meanwhile, unofficial polls conducted show that Greeks will likely vote Yes" And polls in UK showed Milliband winner and a UKIP tsunami... So much for polls... Only the result will be legitimate. And in Greece, few years ago, it was the Nazi who were supposed to win the elections won by Tsipras... We even had a discussion on this forum about this...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"Meanwhile, unofficial polls conducted show that Greeks will likely vote Yes" And polls in UK showed Milliband winner and a UKIP tsunami... So much for polls... Only the result will be legitimate. And in Greece, few years ago, it was the Nazi who were supposed to win the elections won by Tsipras... We even had a discussion on this forum about this...

In fairness, the UK polls were only slightly out, but that made all the difference. It's a bit different with a yes/no referendum.

I was discussing this with my father (and am therefore drunkish) but we came ton the general agreement that if the Germans were aware of the book cooking they have to be at least partly to blame now. The other point we mostly agreed on was that having Greece in the EU and the Euro was more important to the oere EU leaders and the Commission than the economic reality because, in the end, what they are try to do is restore the Pax Romana (hence the keeness to include Turkey).

[HopAlongBunny]

Face up to it. It was never a "bail-out", rather its a daisy chain scam.
Money goes in, is eaten up by fees and interest, all additional money does is continue the cycle.
Realistically, the only way to get at the debt problem is either: repudiate the debt.full stop.; finance a huge boom to the economy that allows the debt to be paid.
That economic boom is not coming, never will.

http://america.aljazeera.com/article...ot-greece.html

[Brenus]

All other "bail out" were just to pay the debts in increasing the debt, not a sustainable solution, what the actual Greek government request. And a little bit of respect between equal (allegedly) partners.
And for the ones who believe a Greek Collapse will have no consequences, look at the banking system in Macedonia, Serbia, Albania, Romania and other Balkan countries, and who has the biggest share in the banking system. The EU of peace is preparing a mega war, like the IMF demands and the Yugoslav debt was the key ingredient in the Yugoslav wars.

[Fragony]

Face up to it. It was never a "bail-out", rather its a daisy chain scam.
Money goes in, is eaten up by fees and interest, all additional money does is continue the cycle.
Realistically, the only way to get at the debt problem is either: repudiate the debt.full stop.; finance a huge boom to the economy that allows the debt to be paid.
That economic boom is not coming, never will.

http://america.aljazeera.com/article...ot-greece.html

Yeah 'help' to Greece is just a covert baillout for banks. They leave Greece with insane interest rates they couldn't possibly pay and the netto-payers in the north are being screwed as well

[HopAlongBunny]

I would go further.
Like the housing bubble in the US, it can only continue as long as the "fiction of worth" can be maintained; if the chain breaks (as may happen shortly) and the debt is exposed as worthless ie: ain't worth the paper it's printed on...
Collapse! Panic! Buyers market on assets! Fire Sale!
Worst of all, Brenus might turn out to be right: revolution, war and the vulture merchants of war shall come to roost

[Fragony]

Why do think central banks want to get rid of cash (no bankruns, negative interests on savings) and the EU wants their own army that can be deployed in any EU country, I think Brenus is right as well.

The Bussels is a cancer.

[Gilrandir]

For banks to benefit, first off the Greeks had to borrow money. They were not coerced into doing this - they just tend to spend a lot more than they bring in through taxation.

Then they needed to lie on audit accounts for a long time so they can still borrow cheap money to spend at low interest rates.

Up until now, most of the money was private lending since most government debt is held privately by individuals / banks etc.

Then the government admits they were lying for years, the books are as good as fakes. The cost of lending goes up since people are worried that they'll not get their money back and people sell at a discount to get the hell out of the Greek economy.

The state needs people to take their debt so the local banks need to buy more and more of it. Eventually this is too much so then Europe needs to start buying close to worthless debt since the Greeks pull their own money out of banks and the bank credit to debt ratio goes off.

So, finally as in the UK the banks receive new money which wipes out all the existing shareholders - who in essence loose all their money. Those bad people like private investors and pension funds.

The only winners are the staff at the bank since in all but name the bank is a new bank with all the previous shareholders owning a tiny share - when the banks have been refloated it wasn't the previous shareholders who were given back the shares to compensate for the lost value..

Like I said: have as little to do with banks as you can help.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

All other "bail out" were just to pay the debts in increasing the debt, not a sustainable solution, what the actual Greek government request. And a little bit of respect between equal (allegedly) partners.
And for the ones who believe a Greek Collapse will have no consequences, look at the banking system in Macedonia, Serbia, Albania, Romania and other Balkan countries, and who has the biggest share in the banking system. The EU of peace is preparing a mega war, like the IMF demands and the Yugoslav debt was the key ingredient in the Yugoslav wars.

The key ingredient in the Yugoslav wars was the death of Tito, the EU has no Tyranos holding the Union together, so it is unlikely to break apart in the same way. War within the EU remains unlikely, as does a war started by an EU member. The most likely military threats are Russia ans Turkey. In the former case economic collapse would be seen as a sign of our general moral weakness and the ineffectiveness of our governmental system (democracy). This might spur Putin or another Russian leader to try to annex territory on the periphery of the EU. Moldova is likely to be the first target as it is neither an EU to a NATO member, but it has a mutual defence pact with Romania which has the potential to drag the rest of us in. In the same vein if Turkey continues to deteriorate politically and Greece economically then the Turks might decide to move troops into the Balkans on the pretext of guaranteeing Turkish security (and nabbing some of what we took from them). At some point economic deterioration will cause the British to remove troops from Cyprus and then Turkey might try to annex it, triggering a war within NATO between Turkey and Greece. There's not guarantee Turkey would win that war, by the way.

[Gilrandir]

the EU has no Tyranos holding the Union together

Frau Kanzlerin?

[Sarmatian]

The key ingredient in the Yugoslav wars was the death of Tito,

I'd say the key ingredient was economic issues. Why should someone in A pay for someone living in B and vice versa. Two decades/several wars later, we're all worse than we were.

There's a lesson in there somewhere....

[Papewaio]

I'd say the key ingredient was economic issues. Why should someone in A pay for someone living in B and vice versa.

The step from clan to country is the ability to redistribute wealth at a country level...

[Sarmatian]

The step from clan to country is the ability to redistribute wealth at a country level...

That works when there's enough of it.

Or better yet, we can't be sure if we've made that step from clan to country until we've seen how we act when the going gets tough.

[Papewaio]

That works when there's enough of it.

Or better yet, we can't be sure if we've made that step from clan to country until we've seen how we act when the going gets tough.

Exactly, it also applies to the EU. Maybe it's time that the EU acted in its best interest for all its citizens and not the interest of the banks.

[Brenus]

The problem is EU doesn't want citizens. EU wants consumers, market and cheap labour, and the upper-class apparatchiks don't realise (or don't want to) that 1st and 3rd don't go together.

[Husar]

The problem is EU doesn't want citizens. EU wants consumers, market and cheap labour, and the upper-class apparatchiks don't realise (or don't want to) that 1st and 3rd don't go together.

Indeed, usually you outsource the misery of #3 to another country, the citizens of which can't unelect you.

[HopAlongBunny]

Perhaps no more than florid rhetoric, but is the characterization of the creditors as terrorists accurate?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33393759

The threat of harm looms large, as well as the near complete evasion of any culpability in the present crisis.
So is this what it has come to in finance? "Pay or we, and our allies will break you!"
Yes, there are two sides in every debacle; are the lenders indeed blameless?

Or, maybe such heated rhetoric misses the point.
The IMF apparently released a report calling for debt relief, and a stretching of time lines:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0P40EO20150703

But why did it become a dirty secret instead of a blueprint for resolution?

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ca...spx?sk=43044.0

[Brenus]

http://www.marianne.net/sites/defaul...-100235256.jpg

Perhaps...

[HopAlongBunny]

Perhaps there are other justifications for the hard-line rhetoric, but you may well be right Brenus

[Pannonian]

http://www.marianne.net/sites/defaul...-100235256.jpg

Perhaps...

The barricades of freedom...etc. I think I prefer hearing songs about foreign revolution to seeing it in my own country. Perhaps you could hop over to Paris for the establishment of your Eighth Republic, or whatever number you've got to now.

[Brenus]

"The barricades of freedom...etc" The title of the Painting is "Liberty Leading the People".... I hate to have to explain allegories...

"Perhaps you could hop over to Paris for the establishment of your Eighth Republic, or whatever number you've got to now." V, so we have to for the VI. Working on this actually... Need a new one as the old V was not aware of new problems as Global Warming and international Greed (but not only)...
BTW, good new version of "foreigner go back in your country"...
Still no news about my alleged hatred for England?

"I think I prefer hearing songs about foreign revolution to seeing it in my own country." Yeah, I imagine. There is always some.
Anna Marly described it in the Chant des Partisans: "There are countries where people in their bed have dreams, Here, we, you see, we walk, we kill and we die. Friends, in the night, do you hear Freedom calling us".
https://youtu.be/uTMe6-6VSuQ
Ooops, wrong one, sorry
https://youtu.be/1hjwicn_evs?list=RD1hjwicn_evs
If you think oppression in your country is acceptable, be free to submit. And a revolution can be democratic... You know, population going to vote for real changes and getting them...

I was in a Revolution once (Serbian one), it is a great thing when a country stop to accept oppression. It is a great hope, only hope but hope. It can turn nasty, and the good guys don't always win, but at least they tried.