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[landlubber]

[...] y'all have been harassing him the entire game over something THAT WASN'T SUSPICIOUS. You want someone to cooperate with you, maybe you shouldn't treat them like the damn bad guy the entire game.

I've been cautious toward GH. I'm not positive, but I think this is my first vote on him the entire game. Yeah, I've said that he was suspicious, but so what? That's how the game goes. I was trying to get holistic reads on everyone.

This is what it sounds like to me: your friendship means more than this individual game (and I don't blame you for that). You trust each other. Fine. Great. But, if you two are both town, we've lost this game, because I'm the third. If Ishamel and JHT are the mafia, they'd happily lynch me. Game over. They win.

I don't have any cards left in my hand. Vote for whoever you want, I guess. I'm too far outside of your clique to be of any help to you, and that's very, very disheartening. I'm an optimistic person, but we've got no hope, because you've now condemned a townie for the sake of protecting each other. Nothing I say has changed your minds, so I may as well stop contributing. We've lost. No hard feelings. Let's try and keep cooperation in mind for the next go-round.

[seireikhaan]

I've been cautious toward GH. I'm not positive, but I think this is my first vote on him the entire game. Yeah, I've said that he was suspicious, but so what? That's how the game goes. I was trying to get holistic reads on everyone.

This is what it sounds like to me: your friendship means more than this individual game (and I don't blame you for that). You trust each other. Fine. Great. But, if you two are both town, we've lost this game, because I'm the third. If Ishamel and JHT are the mafia, they'd happily lynch me. Game over. They win.

I don't have any cards left in my hand. Vote for whoever you want, I guess. I'm too far outside of your clique to be of any help to you, and that's very, very disheartening. I'm an optimistic person, but we've got no hope, because you've now condemned a townie for the sake of protecting each other. Nothing I say has changed your minds, so I may as well stop contributing. We've lost. No hard feelings. Let's try and keep cooperation in mind for the next go-round.

A) Don't get a debbie downer, that's annoying. We're still waiting on the rest of the folks to show up. If you think me and GH have a hard vote set for you, don't. Knock that off.

B) I was not specifically referring to you, I was referring to the votes and mini-wagons that have occurred with regularity since GH first contacted Visor. Every time someone asks GH to defend himself. He did. Then I pointed out even more flaws with those accusations. Then that is promptly ignored. It has happened with regularity. If you think that's exasperating to me as someone who just *thinks* GH is innocent, imagine being him?

[seireikhaan]

And lastly, do you really think a mafioso just called in the last remaining players to try and make sure they voted? Let's say me and GH actually *are* the mafia team. We're sitting here lodging 2 votes on you, so just to make sure we get lynched nice and good, GH calls out everyone else so they can keep up their angry mob act that I had the gall to save myself.

Seriously, at this point the most suspicious thing about you is that you've been only half-engaged with us the whole time. You claimed you wanted robust discussion, but you only address half our points, at best. Give *us* something too.

[landlubber]

Seriously, at this point the most suspicious thing about you is that you've been only half-engaged with us the whole time. You claimed you wanted robust discussion, but you only address half our points, at best. Give *us* something too.

Quote anything that I haven't addressed and I'll answer for it here and now.

[GeneralHankerchief]

A friendly word of advice.

It's the endgame. Stop waving around your good townie credentials so much. Instead, buckle down and find the mafia.

Your recent posts have provided me with food for thought. I'll be doing a reread tomorrow when I have time (5 minutes away from sleeping now). You should too. Then, we'll see.

[landlubber]

It's the endgame. Stop waving around your good townie credentials so much.

Well, I only ever insisted on my innocence because I wanted to get you two focused on each other instead of me, having suspected both of you after the Monty lynch. I didn't expect this tangent to get so consuming.

But, as a measure of good faith:

Unvote.

Fresh start tomorrow.

[seireikhaan]

Explain to me why a mafia wants to contact someone on day 1 who has claimed a role with no power that is not aligned with them.(the original crux of winston's argument, of which you are apparently basing *your* case).

Explain to me why GH saving someone he thinks is innocent at the expense of someone he thinks is less likely to be innocent is scummy.

If we assume GH to be mafia, explain to me why he would create a potentially suspicious, last minute vote switch that would highlight himself when he was not one of the people under threat.

Explain to me why me not laying over to die and give the mafia a free town kill is bad.

Explain to me why GH, as a mafioso with one theoretical partner left at most would call out the remaining players to make sure the mob lynch comes in to lynch us.

edit: tomorrow it is

[landlubber]

Explain to me why a mafia wants to contact someone on day 1 who has claimed a role with no power that is not aligned with them.(the original crux of winston's argument, of which you are apparently basing *your* case).

Explain to me why GH saving someone he thinks is innocent at the expense of someone he thinks is less likely to be innocent is scummy.

If we assume GH to be mafia, explain to me why he would create a potentially suspicious, last minute vote switch that would highlight himself when he was not one of the people under threat.

Explain to me why me not laying over to die and give the mafia a free town kill is bad.

Explain to me why GH, as a mafioso with one theoretical partner left at most would call out the remaining players to make sure the mob lynch comes in to lynch us.

1. First off, my case is at post 257, and I rely on way more than just the PM. I made my own argument. The way the PM was crafted allowed GH to test Visor's reaction, see why he thought the mafia would leave him alone, establish basic contact with Visor, etc. all while not revealing anything of his own alignment. Assuming that GH is mafia, he backed away from the PM after someone latched onto it, using rustiness as a crutch. If he's town, he was probably rattled by people finding suspicion in what he saw as nothing more than a friendly townie-to-pseudotownie greeting.

2. I'm always suspicious of private coordination, especially in games without masons or cops or anything else that would explicitly build a network. The Monty lynch was incredibly clandestine-- it was hard for me to tell that GH was voting for your benefit at all, given how messy everything got. It's also worth noting that I found your vote on Monty to be more scummy, hence my original vote for you. I thought Monty's actions that day were a pretty clear indicator of innocence (I said before his lynch he had been very helpful and acknowledged that my thinking on him, i.e. that he was a bit erratic, had changed). I had a hard time believing that he thought Monty was actually guilty. I still do, to be honest, but it makes more sense given that he counts you as an all-but-revealed townie.

3. That play makes sense if you're his partner and he wants to save you, does it not? ScumKhaan is in trouble, ScumGH can change the lynch, ScumGH does, ScumGH and ScumKhaan later say they've been in communication the whole game and think each other innocent.

4. No worse than lynching another townie. To me, it was pretty clear that Monty deserved to live. Like I said before, you basically guaranteed that you would attract a lot of attention the next round, which, as you know, is LyLo. It's just not my style as town (if you had died, we would probably be focusing on Ishmael and JHT, who I'm feeling less and less positive about the more I talk to you two), but that doesn't mean it's not yours, I suppose.

5. Could be a lot of reasons. Maybe one of them is his partner, which would guarantee another vote on me. Maybe he was confident that he could maintain control of the discussion, keep them on the defensive. Maybe he thinks that JHT, Ishmael, and me won't be able to agree on a lynch and I'll be lynched anyway. It's not all that unreasonable.

[Winston Hughes]

It's the Clay and Billy show!

[landlubber]

A) Don't get a debbie downer, that's annoying. We're still waiting on the rest of the folks to show up. If you think me and GH have a hard vote set for you, don't. Knock that off.

You've provided no evidence-based case, even after I prodded you for one repeatedly. I said you could talk to me in private, whatever it took to build a bridge. I really just want to know what you're thinking, because, by this point, I accept that at least one of you is almost certainly townie. I want the town to win, of course, but what avenue do I have left when it's entirely possible that 100% of the town is voting for me without elaboration, which, for all I know, has more to do with personal relationships than the game itself? I'm being realistic. That's all.