Canada's Ugly Secret

[Greyblades]

I was unaware that the natives had a model beyond an affinity for sub-zero shanty towns.

[Brenus]

"We seem to do best when we follow the Native/Metis model of finding away to live together on the land." The Natives were not slaughtering each others with great enthusiasm?

[Tuuvi]

I was unaware that the natives had a model beyond an affinity for sub-zero shanty towns.

Well jeez that was racist.

"We seem to do best when we follow the Native/Metis model of finding away to live together on the land." The Natives were not slaughtering each others with great enthusiasm?

I don't think they were any more enthusiastic than anyone else...

[Greyblades]

Well jeez that was racist.

In your overly broad defenition of racism yes. In reality, no it wasn't.

We still have no idea what hoppy means by native model.

[Tuuvi]

In your overly broad defenition of racism yes. In reality, no it wasn't.

We still have no idea what hoppy means by native model.

It wasn't KKK level racism but you said an entire group of people has "an affinity for sub-zero shanty towns." I admit I thought you were trying to be snarky, and maybe you weren't, but either way it's obvious you don't think very highly of Native American people.

[Greyblades]

It was snark.

For the record I don't think highly of how other people think highly of native Americans out of reasons that have a habit of being rooted in severe cases of white guilt.

I'm not prejudiced against American Indians, I am prejudiced against the people buoying them up as being one step removed of Tolkien's elves when in fact they are just as capable of good and evil/smart and dumb actions as everyone else. The kneejerk reaction to automatically assume infallibility on their part when in conflict with the "colonials" has ironically made me prone to assuming the opposite whenever someone brings such conflicts to my attention.

So yeah I'm racist, but against the claims of hippies, not the dirty redskins.

That was snark too btw.

[Tuuvi]

It was snark.

For the record I don't think highly of how other people think highly of native Americans out of reasons that have a habit of being rooted in severe cases of white guilt.

I'm not prejudiced against American Indians, I am prejudiced against the people buoying them up as being one step removed of Tolkien's elves when in fact they are just as capable of good and evil/smart and dumb actions as everyone else. The kneejerk reaction to automatically assume infallibility on their part when in conflict with the "colonials" has ironically made me prone to assuming the opposite whenever someone brings such conflicts to my attention.

So yeah I'm racist, but against the claims of hippies, not the dirty redskins.

That was snark too btw.

You are right that American Indians are no better or worse than anyone one else and shouldn't be put on a pedestal. Indians fought wars, participated in slavery, and committed atrocities, just like everyone else. But the fact of the matter is, the Europeans wanted to settle in the Americas, but most of the land was already occupied, so the Indians were forced out. White supremacy was the dominant attitude of the 19th and early-mid 20th centuries, and after colonization Indians were marginalized and denied economic opportunity and political representation along with Blacks, Asians and Latinos. Indians in the US also had the special privilege of being wards of the federal government and weren't trusted to manage their own affairs. On an individual level, some Indians are responsible for their own problems of course, but as a whole Indians were put in the situation they are in now by White settlers and the US and Canadian governments.

I don't like it when people try to deny this history or make disparaging remarks about minorities because that perpetuates the attitudes that led to the atrocities committed against Indians and their subsequent oppression. The Civil Rights Movement was only 40-50 years ago. We've made progress since then but we still haven't rooted racism out of our societies, and we never will if we keep blaming Indians for their poverty and saying stuff like "they have an affinity for sub-zero shanty towns."

I don't feel White guilt. I'm not responsible for things that happened before I was born and I don't believe I have some sort racial bond with other White people. I think the ones who feel white guilt are the ones who can't admit their ancestors committed genocide.

[Kadagar_AV]

We seem to do best when we follow the Native/Metis model of finding away to live together on the land.

I'm also interested what this model was?

We have SUCH a tendency today to view colonialism as the "evil white man" conquering the "proud peaceful native" that we seem to forget that the absolute vast majority of cultures we conquered were absolutely HORRIBLE.

Sure white culture wasn't perfect, but from what I have read it most of the times was a TRUCKLOAD better than the alternatives that the natives had.

[Gilrandir]

I'm not prejudiced against American Indians, I am prejudiced against the people buoying them up as being one step removed of Tolkien's elves when in fact they are just as capable of good and evil/smart and dumb actions as everyone else.

Little do you know of Tolkien's Elves when you consider them closer to prefect than Men. I refer you to Silmarillion. Many of the later Ages' problems stem from disodedience, haughtiness and stubbornness the Elves displayed back then.

[Husar]

I'm also interested what this model was?

We have SUCH a tendency today to view colonialism as the "evil white man" conquering the "proud peaceful native" that we seem to forget that the absolute vast majority of cultures we conquered were absolutely HORRIBLE.

Sure white culture wasn't perfect, but from what I have read it most of the times was a TRUCKLOAD better than the alternatives that the natives had.

I've always rolled my eyes at the noble savage idea, but what you say just makes you sound racist, it does not change anything.
The noble white man bringing culture to the half-apes is just a racist excuse for all the slavery, oppression and murder that were committed for corporate gains.

The truth is somewhere in the middle as it often is, but you only want to polarize since you only bring up the two extreme positions.
What would have become of their cultures without colonialism is only a big what-if since that never happened. I might as well claim that we'd all be better off if Hitler had conquered the planet.

And maybe you could actually make a substantiated claim and tell us what was horrible about their cultures and why ours were better. So far I only remember you making claims without any arguments about this.

[lars573]

"As opposed to the French model?" Nope. French Colonial Past is not one to be proud of. What about to find a new approach?

You see, I was not aware of this old ethnic cleansing, really. It happened that I discovered recently Cajun and Cadian music, so with it the deportation of the French populations by the English. And from U-tube to U-tube song, I discover as, even now, the deed feeling of the French origin population run deep. They still song how the English came to burn, pillage and rape. And you can see the crowd reacting about it.
So, perhaps it is time to heal at least these old wounds.

And one of the first step is to end this claim that "our" country was a model in dealing with conquered populations, native or not...

First off it's Acadienne, and it's not like they had no hand in their ultimate fate. That's not ethnocentrism, that's I read a history book or two. The Acadians weren't removed for being French living on now British ruled land. If that were the case they'd have been gone from mainland Nova Scotia after 1713 with the Treaty of Utrecht (it has a specific provision allowing them to stay). They were removed for being French people living on now British ruled land engaging in a guerrilla war against the British off and on for 40 years on behalf of the French crown. That bubbled over into major conflicts twice. The Acadian's weren't innocent bystanders, they just backed the losing side. I mean the first nations in the area (Mi'kmaq and Maliseet) saw which way the wind was blowing and came to terms with the British. It's also not like Acadians didn't just come back after the great upheaval.

It's interesting that Canada's "ugly bits" tend to arise when we attempt to shoehorn the country into an "British" "French" or "American" colonial model.
We seem to do best when we follow the Native/Metis model of finding away to live together on the land.

The Metis were related by blood and culture to the First nations though. Way easier to find common ground and establish an I'll be over here, you be over there, and we'll stay outta each others way status quo.

[Kadagar_AV]

I've always rolled my eyes at the noble savage idea, but what you say just makes you sound racist, it does not change anything.
The noble white man bringing culture to the half-apes is just a racist excuse for all the slavery, oppression and murder that were committed for corporate gains.

The truth is somewhere in the middle as it often is, but you only want to polarize since you only bring up the two extreme positions.
What would have become of their cultures without colonialism is only a big what-if since that never happened. I might as well claim that we'd all be better off if Hitler had conquered the planet.

And maybe you could actually make a substantiated claim and tell us what was horrible about their cultures and why ours were better. So far I only remember you making claims without any arguments about this.

You know, there was slavery, oppression and murder in Africa before the white guy came, no? It's not like the white guy invented it... The Arabs were the biggest buyers before, AND AFTER. The slave trade to arabic countries is still active, btw.

If you wonder about "examples" of horrible culture... You never once heard about cannibals, as an example? Heck, Africa even TODAY often have extremely horrible cultures with female mutilation, rapes, incest, honor cultures, tribal cultures... Yadda yadda...

If you want to direct your anger against how others have used blacks as slaves, look to the arabic countries, they are way more responsible. But that probably doesn't fit your bleeding heart leftist agenda.

I as a Swede can honestly say we had like nothing to do with the slave trade (we had one short lived station in Africa that handled little to no slaves).

But I should still have some "racial guilt"? are you for real?


Yeah, it is most often bad karma to be borne in Africa. The citizens they have there should REALLY start to sort it out.



About other native groups, it's rarely as bad as with Africans... I have heard some horror stories about Australian natives and their culture, but I know too little (and care too little) to say much about it.

[Husar]

You know, there was slavery, oppression and murder in Africa before the white guy came, no? It's not like the white guy invented it... The Arabs were the biggest buyers before, AND AFTER. The slave trade to arabic countries is still active, btw.

It is also still active in Europe. And yes, of course all that existed there before, it also existed in Europe.

If you wonder about "examples" of horrible culture... You never once heard about cannibals, as an example? Heck, Africa even TODAY often have extremely horrible cultures with female mutilation, rapes, incest, honor cultures, tribal cultures... Yadda yadda...

What's so bad about cannibals?
And that they do things to eachother that we perceive as evil justifies that we do things to them that everyone perceives as evil?
Also which of these things happened in Canada since this is not the topic on Africa anyway.

If you want to direct your anger against how others have used blacks as slaves, look to the arabic countries, they are way more responsible. But that probably doesn't fit your bleeding heart leftist agenda.

If I have a bleeding heart leftist agenda, then you must be the nazi.
I also never said we should take arabia as a role model, that sort of thing only seems to exist in your head.
Not to forget that the wrongs of arabia do not make our wrongs right.

I as a Swede can honestly say we had like nothing to do with the slave trade (we had one short lived station in Africa that handled little to no slaves).

But I should still have some "racial guilt"? are you for real?

How about you don't make things up that I never said and don't get worked up about these nonexistant things?

Yeah, it is most often bad karma to be borne in Africa. The citizens they have there should REALLY start to sort it out.

Still not a topic on Africa.

About other native groups, it's rarely as bad as with Africans... I have heard some horror stories about Australian natives and their culture, but I know too little (and care too little) to say much about it.

So you agree that Canada shouldn't have tried to forcefully kill off the culture of the natives?

[Kadagar_AV]

Husar, Africa has as much to do with it as your constant references to Germany in the 1930's -40's... Trauma/complex?

You asked for examples of why colonialism might not have been such a bad idea as the native culture was horrible, and I gave you some. And then you flame me for giving you examples of what you requested?

YOU were the one who brought up slavery, did the Canadians enslave their minorities? If not, how can you blame me for following your (lack of?) thought?

As quoted here:

The noble white man bringing culture to the half-apes is just a racist excuse for all the slavery, oppression and murder that were committed for corporate gains.

I think it's quite fair to meet such a line of thought with stating that the, as you call them, "half apes" (what a strange way to talk about human beings) were like REALLY good at slavery, oppression and murder all on their own. They had bad and sad cultures before the white man got there, they have had bad and sad cultures since the white man left.

In fact, for every 1 year of whites meddling they have had what? 300-400 years to sort their **** out? White meddling make up a FRACTION of the time human (lack of?) civilization in Africa has existed.

[HopAlongBunny]

The Native populations were not passive. They allied with the British and the French; serving with great gusto.
They were also not above displacing each other; when one tribe was decimated by disease another would happily move in.
But by way of example, we have a new Elections law following our American "betters" in wiping out voter fraud. Like in the USA voter fraud is not (has never been afaik) a problem. It does disenfranchise people though.
When we don the colonial mindset, we tend to adopt failed policies from our present model instead of doing something useful.

By way of references I recommend Clearing the Plains for historical reference, and The Inconvenient Indian for a contemporary account.

[Greyblades]

Still waiting for an explanation of this "Native/Metis model of finding away to live together on the land" that you think is best.

[Kadagar_AV]

Still waiting for an explanation of this "Native/Metis model of finding away to live together on the land" that you think is best.

He's probably just raised in an environment where that is the right thing to say, and then he hasn't thought much more on it since.

[Husar]

Husar, Africa has as much to do with it as your constant references to Germany in the 1930's -40's... Trauma/complex?

No, I just love talking about the good old times.

You asked for examples of why colonialism might not have been such a bad idea as the native culture was horrible, and I gave you some. And then you flame me for giving you examples of what you requested?

No. Read my post again.

YOU were the one who brought up slavery, did the Canadians enslave their minorities? If not, how can you blame me for following your (lack of?) thought?

Yes, your first post led me to believe this was the topic on Africa, I was trying to rectify that mistake, not so much trying to blame you.

I think it's quite fair to meet such a line of thought with stating that the, as you call them, "half apes" (what a strange way to talk about human beings) were like REALLY good at slavery, oppression and murder all on their own. They had bad and sad cultures before the white man got there, they have had bad and sad cultures since the white man left.

Yes, it's how our great grandparents talked about them, very strange indeed. You should feel very guilty because of that.
And now you're saying that the white man didn't do anything wrong in dealing with them? Or that our wrongs are okay because of their wrongs? Do you support the death penalty?

By the way, in Europe it was also everyone murdering everyone else before the end of WW2, that alone does not make a sad or bad culture. Europeans were just doing it on a higher technological level. And it didn't even completely stop after WW2.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yes, it's how our great grandparents talked about them, very strange indeed. You should feel very guilty because of that.

I have no idea of what ****ed up grandparents you have, Mr. German guy... All I know is that that the grandfather on my fathers side were in the resistance force blowing up Hitlers trains, while the grandfather on my mothers side was busy organizing shelter for Finnish refugee children while protecting the swedish border...

What is it EXACTLY that I should feel guilty about here?

And now you're saying that the white man didn't do anything wrong in dealing with them?

Not at all. Actually, it would be a very dumb thing to do - to conclude that I mean that the white man has done nothing wrong. I might even have to stretch it as far as saying you have to be ideologically blind to even begin to draw such conclusions.

Or that our wrongs are okay because of their wrongs?

Actually, I am the one who put things in perspective here... You are the one on the bandwagon.

Do you support the death penalty?

As a matter of fact I do, in some extreme cases... Like that guy who during christmas dressed out as santa, and raped a 8 year old... And after 20+ years in jail went out and rape/murdered a 7 year old...

I don't want to see him back in society again, nor do I as a tax payer want to pay for his living expenses meanwhile.

But yeah, I would limit death penalty to extreme cases, not like it's done in, say, the US.

By the way, in Europe it was also everyone murdering everyone else before the end of WW2, that alone does not make a sad or bad culture. Europeans were just doing it on a higher technological level. And it didn't even completely stop after WW2.

Now you are just falling into some in your view political correct review of history and facts.


An example to combat that line of thought of yours:

YES we in Sweden have had group-rapes and assault-rapes before we let a load of Africans in...

But with that said, the number of group-rapes and assault-rapes have STILL skyrocketed since we started accepting a truckload of people from questionable cultures. And the perps are not named Björn, Lars or Sven.


Culture is a REAL thing... You can like it or dislike it, but you can never shy away from the fact.

Also, LOL.

[Brenus]

“They were removed for being French people living on now British ruled land engaging in a guerrilla war against the British off and on for 40 years on behalf of the French crown.”
So we agree that the “British way” was no better than the “Yankee” way, as I don’t see Custer saying something really different: Signed treaty, escape reserves, have to be deported/killed/put on lines.
This said, an ethnic cleansing is an ethnic cleansing, and I am quite surprise you justify it with the same kind of arguments used by the SS during WW2 for burning villages, hanging by-passers and killing hostages.

I was really surprised by the French Canadians feelings for events of what, 2-300 years old, but, seeing yours, I can see the problem.
About Cadian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cajun_French

Apparently, yours readings were exclusively on the British point of view

[Husar]

What is it EXACTLY that I should feel guilty about here?

Where you were born, who your parents are and of course the colour of your skin. Also the problems that your fellow countrymen cause you.

Actually, I am the one who put things in perspective here... You are the one on the bandwagon.

What perspective would that be? You seemed to justify killing all the natives because you think their culture is "HORRIBLE".
If that was not it, then you don't put anything in perspective, you just confuse people by being unclear.

Now you are just falling into some in your view political correct review of history and facts.


An example to combat that line of thought of yours:

YES we in Sweden have had group-rapes and assault-rapes before we let a load of Africans in...

But with that said, the number of group-rapes and assault-rapes have STILL skyrocketed since we started accepting a truckload of people from questionable cultures. And the perps are not named Björn, Lars or Sven.


Culture is a REAL thing... You can like it or dislike it, but you can never shy away from the fact.

Also, LOL.

Now you're just falling back to your racist theories about inferior people...

To challenge that line of thought of yours:
Completely different upbringing, circumstances etc., bad immigration policies (creation of ghettos, natives leave instead of giving immigrants a chance early on, continuation just exacerbates the problem by making immigrants feel unwanted, alone and within a hostile culture, which is not even wrong and becomes self-perpetuating).
You know, I am with you if you say that immigration needs to be handled carefully and that smaller countries may overload themselves. Where I am not with you is that you always blame everything solely on the immigrants and their genetics or culture or whatever you call it nowadays not to get banned.

[lars573]

So we agree that the “British way” was no better than the “Yankee” way, as I don’t see Custer saying something really different: Signed treaty, escape reserves, have to be deported/killed/put on lines.
This said, an ethnic cleansing is an ethnic cleansing, and I am quite surprise you justify it with the same kind of arguments used by the SS during WW2 for burning villages, hanging by-passers and killing hostages.

The yank way would be massacres and unsupported running off of the previous inhabitants (see the loyalist experiences). The British removed the Acadians to ships and dropped them off somewhere they had a chance to get by after ward. Oh and they never stopped any of them from coming back. And I don't see any government in anytime period that would be willing to nothing when you have a hostile population that flat refuses to do anything but fight you. Removing them was the more humanist thing in the 18th century (I will never impose modern morales and people that far back, for me even WW1 is almost too far). Other nations would more than likely have suppressed them with the sword. I mean did you even look up the current Acadian population living on the former colony's lands? It's 93196. So worst ethnic cleansing ever.

I was really surprised by the French Canadians feelings for events of what, 2-300 years old, but, seeing yours, I can see the problem.

Actually most French Canadian grievances are from late Victorian onward British imperial assimilationist attitudes. Which only ended in Canada in the 60's. You know cultural genocide. Quebecois really live in fear of that. Especially after the destruction of Cajun French after the US civil war. That's where they're go it alone nationalism comes from, and their desire to weaken the Anglo dominated federal government. Acadians being a much smaller ethnic group (36000 living in the Canadian parts their old colony) seek protection inside the system they live in. That's why New Brunswick is the only bi-lingual province in Canada. And Nova Scotia has Acadian schools

About Cadian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cajun_French

That's not a term stop trying to make it up. AKA show me where you heard it. Cause I know it's trademarked by Gamesworkshop.

Apparently, yours readings were exclusively on the British point of view

No they were first the sorta evil British imperialist narrative public schools push. Then less biased writings. In school history classes you learn nothing of the Acadians guerrilla war against the British. It pushes innocent bystander Acadians get stepped on by British/French colonial wheeling and dealing.

[Brenus]

"AKA show me where you heard it" Difficult to show where we heard something.
Well, you might be surprise: It is a french word.
http://cyberacadie.com/index.php?/di...en-/Cajun.html

"Cause I know it's trademarked by Gamesworkshop" You obviously don't know French. In French, the name for French speaking population is Cadien. In the text I linked: "En 1999 (du 1 août au 15 août) les Cadiens de la Louisiane accueillirent les Acadiens de par le monde, lors du deuxième Congrès Mondial Acadien."
Now, I think that settle the problem. Or not?
Or if you prefer youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5oXhbuChVM

"Acadians guerrilla war against the British." Bad bad Acadians who try to resist against nice British who invaded their lands. Really, this people...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians
According the link, the guerrilla occurred DURING the deportation. Some might thing the guerrilla was the RESULT of the deportation. And during the war, guerrilla is part of the war.
So, nope, I think the British way of dealing with supposed hostile population is no better than the yanks' one.

"The British removed the Acadians to ships and dropped them off somewhere" Not according Wiki: "New England Ranger Lieutenant Hazen engaged in frontier warfare against the Acadians in what has become known as the "Ste Anne's Massacre". On 18 February 1759, Hazen and about fifteen men arrived at Sainte-Anne des Pays-Bas. The Rangers pillaged and burned the village of 147 buildings, two Mass-houses and various barns and stables. The Rangers burned a large store-house, containing a large quantity of hay, wheat, peas, oats and other foodstuffs, killing 212 horses, about five head of cattle and a large number of hogs. They also burned the church located just west of Old Government House, Fredericton.[63] The leader of the Acadian militia on the St. John river Joseph Godin-Bellefontaine refused to swear an oath despite the Rangers torturing and killing members of his family in front of him." It was against order, but no, the British were not nice and sweet.
But you can carry on to defend ethnic cleansing.

[Kadagar_AV]

Husar, I actually reported that post. I don't do it often but hey, that was just so... Well, bad.

What do you mean is bad about my parents?

I mean, skin colour, sure, we can have a debate on pros and cons of white versus dark skin... Sun reflection ability is a good start.

But see, when you start to trash talk my dead father and stuff, well, that is where I draw the line and just declare you an asshole (yeah, I'll take a warning point for that).

So really Husar, both of my tall fingers heading your way.

[Husar]

Husar, I actually reported that post. I don't do it often but hey, that was just so... Well, bad.

What do you mean is bad about my parents?

I mean, skin colour, sure, we can have a debate on pros and cons of white versus dark skin... Sun reflection ability is a good start.

But see, when you start to trash talk my dead father and stuff, well, that is where I draw the line and just declare you an asshole (yeah, I'll take a warning point for that).

I mentioned the things that people of other countries are often criticized or disliked for, but irony and sarcasm don't seem to be your thing. It was meant as a sarastic and general statement, why should I hate your parents if I don't even know them? Maybe it makes sense to you because you seem to have strong opinions about millions of people whom you never knew...

[Kadagar_AV]

I mentioned the things that people of other countries are often criticized or disliked for, but irony and sarcasm don't seem to be your thing. It was meant as a sarastic and general statement, why should I hate your parents if I don't even know them? Maybe it makes sense to you because you seem to have strong opinions about millions of people whom you never knew...

People of other countries are often criticized or disliked because of their parents for no reason?

Are you on drugs?

[Husar]

People of other countries are often criticized or disliked because of their parents for no reason?

Are you on drugs?

No, you just don't understand what I did there.

[Kadagar_AV]

No, you just don't understand what I did there.

No, YOU don't understand what you did there.

You have no, absolutely non, under no circumstances, any right to in any way try to put my parents in a bad way, even jokingly/sarcastically/whatever. Had we been face to face tonight I would have introduced your mouth to my fist.

[Beskar]

Kadagar, he was referring to the fact you made similar comments about people from African decent, saying their parents sleep with their siblings, all kinds of inaccurate accusations and what not, and by proxy, the children are responsible for their crimes. Thus, you condemn people as guilty because of their parents. Thus, he responded to your "What should I be guilty for?", he mentioned 'your parents' as a parody of your view, along with other factors like 'skin tone', 'culture', etc. He wasn't personally attacking you or making references to your deceased father.

Please keep the tone civil.

[Kadagar_AV]

Kadagar, he was referring to the fact you made similar comments about people from African decent, saying their parents sleep with their siblings, all kinds of inaccurate accusations and what not, and by proxy, the children are responsible for their crimes. Thus, you condemn people as guilty because of their parents. Thus, he responded to your "What should I be guilty for?", he mentioned 'your parents' as a parody of your view, along with other factors like 'skin tone', 'culture', etc. He wasn't personally attacking you or making references to your 'dead dad'.

Please keep the tone civil.

Huh?

When did similar and same, be equal?


I think I might have complained about the hardships of teaching inbred children, sure. And yeah, in a way that is "blaming the parents".

I might also have stated that the Middle East and Africa are like sky rocketing when it comes to inbreeding stats...

But to have a German guy for no reason directly criticise my late concentration-camp-surviving father is a whole other thing.

So no, I reported that, and I stick by it, and I still have two fingers generally pointing in the German direction.