IMMIGRATION thread

[Kadagar_AV]

Irrelevant. You chose to refer to people based on their pigmentation levels ('black' and 'white') rather than their background - i.e. culture and nationality (and just now: biological ethnicity). This more or less implies that their pigmentation level (or their biology in general) is a problem in itself; as if one could not expect people with this and that pigmentation level to behave other than so and so.

Look at it this way: if you could only chose between two words to describe Hitler, 'white guy' and 'Nazi', which one would you chose?

Look at it this way... you automatically scream "RACISM" when someone questions or argues against mass immigration from the Middle east and Africa.

You have no arguments as to why it would be a GOOD idea to let them in, oh no. You just scream "BLOODY MURDERER" at anyone awake enough to understand Europe has dire problems.

[Removed Farmyard Animals]

[Viking]

^ what he says

@ Swordmaster

You can't learn from history, the conditions in what it took place can't jusf be slapped upon wildly different circumstances.

Certain mechanisms have a tendency of repeating, so yes; it is possible to learn from history - it's just that it's a bad bet to look for an exact repeat of a scenario.

You have no arguments as to why it would be a GOOD idea to let them in, oh no. You just scream "BLOODY MURDERER" at anyone awake enough to understand Europe has dire problems.

I've most recently argued against mass-immigration from those very areas. You are missing the point completely.

You seem think that in order to to accuse someone who opposes immigration of racism, you have to be supportive of immigration yourself - which is rather obviously nonsense.

[Fragony]

Certain mechanisms have a tendency of repeating, so yes; it is possible to learn from history - it's just that it's a bad bet to look for an exact repeat of a scenario.

That's like altering the sum to reach an outcome. This is without prescedent, in the Roman times there were major shifts of people moving and settling, but that took centuries, I am sure you can find a timelapse somewhere,.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Out of all the challenges Europe has ever faced, this is the one that ends its hegemony?

You people made great strides to open borders and reduce arms in an effort towards inter-European peace and now you are all tripping over how to treat these long distance migrants?

You have no duty to these people. Every one of you lot that called US/UK policy in the region callous when these same countries we destabilized sent the US into recession in the 1970s as soon as they realized they could embargo enough oil to fuck with us.

[Montmorency]

Out of all the challenges Europe has ever faced, this is the one that ends its hegemony?

To be technical, European hegemony had already ended by the conclusion of WW2.

[AE Bravo]

The US screwed you lot by displacing these people in the first place. They're okay with taking them in and getting them to adapt, EU is just too white.

[Husar]

Every one of you lot that called US/UK policy in the region callous when these same countries we destabilized sent the US into recession in the 1970s as soon as they realized they could embargo enough oil to fuck with us.

If this is a sentence I can't find it.

The US screwed you lot by displacing these people in the first place. They're okay with taking them in and getting them to adapt, EU is just too white.

How many thousands have they taken in the US?
http://www.vox.com/2015/9/11/9309973/syrian-refugees-us

Let's hope they won't take more or ACIN may start as many threads as Kadagar.
But don't worry, once they have turned Europe into a desert kaliphate, the US will be next.

[AE Bravo]

I've never seen a green caliphate before, I bet it would be less angry. I blame the heat.

[Montmorency]

I guess after the next war, there will be conspiracy theories of a Moon Caliphate.

(Hitler relocates to Mars.)

[a completely inoffensive name]

If this is a sentence I can't find it.

It's just a massive run on sentence. Let me elaborate what I am trying to say.

Everyone who called US led policy in the Middle East 'callous' is naive. Those who blame all the ills of the middle east on the US are naive. Many of the neighboring arab countries are playing Europe as naive. How many refugees has Saudi Arabia taken? Egypt? Algeria? These are countries that much closer in proximity, culture and religion to Syrians than Western Europe on all accounts.

The whole area is full of regimes that from the 1950s are nothing but opportunistic. Once they felt they could, they tried to destroy Israel, once they felt they could, they embargo'd oil, once they felt they could, they promoted Islamic terrorism and funded radical Islamic thoughts to undermine Western influence. Now many of these same countries feel that they can get away with refusing to take in Syrians because they know EU policies and morals will force Europe to take in everyone who tries to come in. They promote this as well, as there is no reason why many of these refugees cannot simply find safe refuge in the first EU countries they come across (typically Greece and Hungary). Instead it is obvious they have fed a message of "Get to Germany or bust".

You are getting played and it is becoming more and more obvious by the minute. Why are the vast majority of refugees men other than to exploit the German legal system that allows declared refugees the right to bring their families along with them?

My point of view is that the Syrian civil war is solely a middle east problem that should be resolved by the middle east community and instead it is being guilt tripped onto Europe. The sad thing is that many Europeans are going along with the guilt trip.

And if you think I'm some monster or ignoramous because of this oh well. My hope is for Europe to remain the bastion of social democracy that I can point to in order to bring America up to European standards (e.g. health care). I don't like seeing Sweden's right wing party jump from 2% to 25% of the vote and I don't like seeing UKIP getting media attention in the UK. The refugee situation is only feeding these groups more and more.

[Montmorency]

These are countries that much closer in proximity, culture and religion to Syrians than Western Europe on all accounts.

Algeria? For the record, Egypt has taken in more Syrian refugees than the UK has refugees from anywhere.

[Husar]

I have time and time again on these boards said that I believe the world would be a better place if around 10% of the population in every country was foreign - spread from all over the world.

Since I do not remember a single instance of you saying that, how about you link me to some? Let's say three instances minimum and you get a +1 if you link me five.

It's just a massive run on sentence. Let me elaborate what I am trying to say.

Everyone who called US led policy in the Middle East 'callous' is naive. Those who blame all the ills of the middle east on the US are naive. Many of the neighboring arab countries are playing Europe as naive. How many refugees has Saudi Arabia taken? Egypt? Algeria? These are countries that much closer in proximity, culture and religion to Syrians than Western Europe on all accounts.

The whole area is full of regimes that from the 1950s are nothing but opportunistic. Once they felt they could, they tried to destroy Israel, once they felt they could, they embargo'd oil, once they felt they could, they promoted Islamic terrorism and funded radical Islamic thoughts to undermine Western influence. Now many of these same countries feel that they can get away with refusing to take in Syrians because they know EU policies and morals will force Europe to take in everyone who tries to come in. They promote this as well, as there is no reason why many of these refugees cannot simply find safe refuge in the first EU countries they come across (typically Greece and Hungary). Instead it is obvious they have fed a message of "Get to Germany or bust".

You are getting played and it is becoming more and more obvious by the minute. Why are the vast majority of refugees men other than to exploit the German legal system that allows declared refugees the right to bring their families along with them?

My point of view is that the Syrian civil war is solely a middle east problem that should be resolved by the middle east community and instead it is being guilt tripped onto Europe. The sad thing is that many Europeans are going along with the guilt trip.

And if you think I'm some monster or ignoramous because of this oh well. My hope is for Europe to remain the bastion of social democracy that I can point to in order to bring America up to European standards (e.g. health care). I don't like seeing Sweden's right wing party jump from 2% to 25% of the vote and I don't like seeing UKIP getting media attention in the UK. The refugee situation is only feeding these groups more and more.

Thank you for this reply. It actually made me think a bit and you may have a point. The obvious sarcastic reply is "but the Saudis are our friends" and the truth behind it is that we helped these people stay in power, which IIRC was among the things I criticized about our handling of the region. And by our I do not just mean the US but also Europe. If it hadn't been for all the oil money and the weapon deliveries, these countries might look and behave quite different today, but that's a what-if.

As for my position on refugees, many people fail to see that I have always said the refugees need to be checked and only those who are actually in need should be allowed to stay, which is the way it actually works. Kadagar posted the rejection rates and failed to see that Germany only allows 41% to stay (not counting appeals and court processes) while in Sweden it is more than 70%. That doesn't mean that we do not sometimes allow the wrong people to stay, but I'd hazard a guess that in Germany there are fewer "wrong" ones than in Sweden, which is another reason the never-ending Sweden-comparison just doesn't work. I've also criticized the lack of will on the part of politicians to actually apply the laws or adjust them to long-known exploits. And I still am told that I have some guilt complex as though people just don't read the parts of what I say that make their attacks pointless. Admittedly I've misread posts myself, but it seems like every week some people are reset and come with the same arguments again. What I argue against is the kind of argument that goes "I want none of these brown people here!" and that said, I await Kadagar's links, perhaps he just had problems communicating his multicultural spirit lately, in which case I may be open for a big virtual hug.

[Kadagar_AV]

Certain mechanisms have a tendency of repeating, so yes; it is possible to learn from history - it's just that it's a bad bet to look for an exact repeat of a scenario.




I've most recently argued against mass-immigration from those very areas. You are missing the point completely.

You seem think that in order to to accuse someone who opposes immigration of racism, you have to be supportive of immigration yourself - which is rather obviously nonsense.

What exactly is racism to you?

I vehemently dislike having Arabs, Africans and Gypsies around me, in the place where I live.

It does not mean I don't treat every person I meet with respect, it does not mean I don't do my best to integrate them to my society, it does not mean I am not willing to help them create better living conditions for themselves in their home states...

But see, I dislike having Gypsies around me, not Romanians or Bulgarians, as an example. And Gypsies come from Romania and Bulgaria.

I have several Romanian and Bulgarian friends, but yes, one of the ethnic cultures in Romania and Bulgaria I don't like.


And why? Because Gypsies is a pure parasitic culture that is straight out said EVIL to the people following it, and generally negative on the society they dwell in.

Is that racist?

I find it problematic that we to Sweden import people from cultures with a long history of inbreeding and "quantity above quality" so to say when it comes to creating a second generation...

Is that because I am racist, or because I am SO bored with teaching math to these stupid people, all the while seeing the population and the politicians running around with their arms in the air wondering why the school results are sinking like a stone.

*not teaching anymore, I should add, because I left teaching for this exact reason. I didn't become a teacher to deal with problems like this, I would honestly say around 30% of my work time was dealing with immigration problems (in various ways), I joined politics instead of teaching to get to the root with the problem*

Heck, that 10 year old girl I had, who was about to have her vagina mutilated in Africa, with me unable to stop it even though calling the social service, police, and so on still haunts me.

I have time and time again on these boards said that I believe the world would be a better place if around 10% of the population in every country was foreign - spread from all over the world.

However, that is NOT what we are seeing.

Am I racist?

Maybe, I don't know...

I think the human race evolved, and then split up because of various reasons. We are still the same RACE though - humans.

With that said, I also believe that all dogs are dogs... But let us remember that we still have Berner Blanc Suisse and Chihuahuas, and those have evolved on a time period WAY shorter than humanitys history.

My point is that when I decided to get a dog, well, guess my pick.

And it's not that I am a racist that HATE other dog breeds. I think German Shepherds are also cool, Border Collies are intelligenter than my dogs breed, and Poodles can do circus numbers to make you laugh all day...


With that said however, I wouldn't ever get a Chihuahua, because they are less intelligent, they take WAY more training before they stop pooping indoors, and they bark at the mailman even though he is just doing his job.

[Viking]

What exactly is racism to you?

Being prejudiced based on biology. If you don't want to let people with IQ less than a certain threshold into the country; then you should give applicants IQ tests, not look at their pigmentation levels (and if you are really worried about IQ levels, then you should also test ethnic Swedes and expel those with low scores).

With that said however, I wouldn't ever get a Chihuahua, because they are less intelligent, they take WAY more training before they stop pooping indoors, and they bark at the mailman even though he is just doing his job.

But then you would have to prove it. Given that our knowledge of human biology is at a premature stage, this likely not possible for the moment. All kinds of factors can influence how people end up - whether things like aggressiveness or intelligence. Nutrition could influence, education could influence; and effects could accumulate over generations. Until we can provide decent estimates on how people are going to behave solely from DNA, the case for linking behaviour with biological ethnicity will be weak, because the possible contributing factors will be hard to separate.

If two populations largely live segregated, then the non-biological factors can vary a lot between the two populations. If they do not live segregated, then they would likely interbreed and soon there would no longer exist two separate populations to study. So that's why you want to understand the DNA if you want to get to the bottom of it.

[Fragony]

Wouldn't three generations getting the same chances eliminate most considerations if you put it like that? Not trying to be an ass but people from some regions do really badly, why dismiss what should be a consideration. I will just admit that I am a racist, I believe there are differences, good or bad. If you get dropped in the middle of Australia, you die. Aboriginals wont, they won't be depleted in a few hours. You would probably do better at getting a master's degree though.

[Kadagar_AV]

Being prejudiced based on biology. If you don't want to let people with IQ less than a certain threshold into the country; then you should give applicants IQ tests, not look at their pigmentation levels (and if you are really worried about IQ levels, then you should also test ethnic Swedes and expel those with low scores).



But then you would have to prove it. Given that our knowledge of human biology is at a premature stage, this likely not possible for the moment. All kinds of factors can influence how people end up - whether things like aggressiveness or intelligence. Nutrition could influence, education could influence; and effects could accumulate over generations. Until we can provide decent estimates on how people are going to behave solely from DNA, the case for linking behaviour with biological ethnicity will be weak, because the possible contributing factors will be hard to separate.

If two populations largely live segregated, then the non-biological factors can vary a lot between the two populations. If they do not live segregated, then they would likely interbreed and soon there would no longer exist two separate populations to study. So that's why you want to understand the DNA if you want to get to the bottom of it.

Oh my...

Sorry mate, that still sounds brainwashed, and have no resemblance to facts.

First of all, I am not - to take an example, saying everyone in Japan is intelligent. What I am saying is that if we take in loads of people from Japan to - say - Sweden, school results are likely to go up.

That is not even prejudice, it's fact. Hey, I even heard that in the USA, students are told to "keep down" their asianess if they want to get into uni, as there are so many asians there and the unis try to run race-programs to make society more "equal" for the blacks.

Not that I would ever get why it's better to have a less qualified black doctor, than a more qualified asian one. But oooooooh the logical missteps we have to take to be good persons in this new multicultural world.


How the HELL can you from anything I have written drawn the conclusion that I would in any way support expelling Swedes below a certain IQ score? Are you on drugs? That sounds like one of the most dystopian fantasies I have ever heard, and you try to put that thought on me?

That's insulting, and I look forward to you saying "I am sorry".



AND LOL, do you actually live in a world, where if you wanted a guard dog, you would not be able to see any difference between dog breeds, as DNA can't prove who would be the most adequate?




Heck, I don't even HAVE to get into biological reasons as to why I don't want Arabs and Africans around me, except on vacation.



It is simply because since we started letting them in, in massive ways, we have riots, attacks against the police, women are no longer safe, librarians need security guards, the free word is threatened by religious fantasies, our ambulance need police escort to go into the areas where the darker skinned people dwell...



And this is in a country where they get several hundred dollars, or several hundred euros, a month, from the state - for free.

While also having full access to the whole wellfare society with medicine, pensions, child care, education....

Yeah, education.... Don't get me STARTED on the effects having African instead of Swedish kids have on the education...




DAMN MAN, have you taught African kids much? I have, and it's an absolute HORROR.

I remember this guy - 12 years old - who I actually had to go down to the level of:

HERE are 2 (two) blocks.

THIS is 1 (one) block.

How many ONE blocks, can you fit into this TWO block opening here.



Between him, the Arab with weak Swedish, and the blind kid... There sure as HELL was not much time over for the other 27 kids in the classroom. YEY for living in a nation where anyone not agreeing to "every humans equal value" is a rotten racist.


It's still a success story though, as this kid 2 years later raped a girl in the school, and was forced out... So YEY, success, the class got rid of him. The girl is still traumatized for life, though. Of course.

[Kadagar_AV]

I would like to clarify one thing...

When I left teaching, the best student I had had was from Ethiopia.

My personal biggest success was this former Yugoslavian kid, who went from an ADHD-diagnose and criminality to, just this month, getting into university.

I personally just think I was the first teacher who asked him "is that the best you can do" when he handed stuff in, instead of taking it and grading it. But whatever, his dad sent me a big flower bouquet to celebrate. So I must have had some impact.

I have done my UTTERMOST to try to stop a female mutilation, only to be let down by the more accepting society around me. I actually thought about going over to the fathers house with a baseball bat, even.

But then, I decided it's better join politics and get to the root of the problems, than it is to put myself in jail.


Scream BLOODY RACIST all you want, I still won't see it, and the people who's life I touched, in my career of:

1. Educating in a resort where people come from all over the world.

2. Educating is schools with diverse cultures.

... Would all laugh if I was called racist.

YOU HAVE TO be able to separate how I act in my personal life, from what conclusions I draw from my life and the political MUCH larger processes at work.



A racist is for me, at least, someone who wouldn't offer their best shirt when a black guy is wounded...


That's not me, I am the guy saying schools results will continue to sink, and more girls will be raped, if we continue this madness we do in Sweden.

[Husar]

YOU HAVE TO be able to separate how I act in my personal life, from what conclusions I draw from my life and the political MUCH larger processes at work.

So you claim schizophrenia?