Pirate Ship Mafia III [Concluded]

[Zack]

Had the vig attemp succeeded how on earth it would have cleared anyone? Breath man and think.

Why not have everyone join 3-man vig groups? Why order people to protect and steal, neither of which clear them of anything? You specifically tried to organize protections against vig targets, which would nullify your whole idea for clearing people through failed vig attempts (unless for some reason you believe the French can kill through protection)? Again, can you specifically reference what rule you're talking about? No one else can find the part that says Frenchies automatically make townie vig groups succeed regardless of numbers. I see no reason to believe that.

I already answered all your questions. Can you tell me which one i did not? How many of mine did you answer to me? Please contribute and we can have a discussion, otherwise you are wasting me time.

You did not answer any of these questions:

You said:


Seems pretty clear where I got that idea.

You just brushed this off and denied it, but whatever. As Visor pointed out you've been talking about certain people as if you know they're town, yet you keep dismissing this as false.

So what? Is there any reason to believe they're town? Did you specifically know Visor was trying to kill one of those two people? I want to know your original motive, not a justification based on the results. Do you think Visor is French, and if so, why? If not, why would you block him?

Why is being part of a vig group reason to block Visor?
How did you know Visor was in a vig group?
Is there some reason why spaceman and ATPG are bad kill targets? Why is killing them undesirable?
The justification you gave was based on the results - it "prevented a night kill". What was the original motive behind the block?
Do you think Visor is French? Why or why not? If not, why would you block him?

It seems like you blocked Visor because he was a vocal opponent of yours, not because of any suspicion of him.

Why not? I assume you believe in the lynch, so what makes vigkills so wrong that you actively try to prevent people from carrying them out?

What is wrong with vig killing in theory? What makes them worse than the lynch?
Why would you go to such efforts to disrupt them, meaning a significant number of players ended up wasting their time?

[Visor]

Nightkills are actually bad for the french as it (potentially) narrows conversion targets.

[Kagemusha]

Let us ask the Gods. ​GH, if there is a fenchman or his agent part of a vig squad. Does the vig squad need 4 people to succeed, or will the attack of a frenchie kill the mark anyway?

[Zack]

This is unbelievable. You still refuse to even acknowledge any of my concerns. You are endangering the town cause, and I've waited long enough for you to change your tune. We need a new captain.

Vote: Mutiny

[GeneralHankerchief]

Let us ask the Gods. ​GH, if there is a fenchman or his agent part of a vig squad. Does the vig squad need 4 people to succeed, or will the attack of a frenchie kill the mark anyway?

Frenchmen agents killing without any town influence (i.e. a true mafia kill) require two agents to succeed in most circumstances. If they're killing as part of a townie kill group, they don't count for extra and thus the full four is still needed.

[Kagemusha]

This is unbelievable. You still refuse to even acknowledge any of my concerns. You are endangering the town cause, and I've waited long enough for you to change your tune. We need a new captain.

Vote: Mutiny

I am sorry. I have to run a company in real life, so i may not have my personal instant messenger service just for you. Il address your concerns when i have more time and energy, the day is still young, but at least your motivations for yesterday and this mornings episode are now quite clear.

[Visor]

Vote: Mutiny.

The problem Kage, is that none of your actions make sense from a town motivation, and you've ignored attempts to make things more transparent.

[Zack]

I am sorry. I have to run a company in real life, so i may not have my personal instant messenger service just for you. Il address your concerns when i have more time and energy, the day is still young, but at least your motivations for yesterday and this mornings episode are now quite clear.

Your motivations are also quite clear.

[Ituralde]

There be a mutiny already, this is real pirating to be sure.

Just to understand for me simple fellow: There be people killed at night by bands of other pirates. Some say this is good, beacause the Dead can not become French, others say this is bad because the Dead will be well... dead.

For me a choice between dead and french sound terrible! Any other choices? Me thinks we should rather kill the French that be doing the conversioninginging... how do this word end?

[Visor]

Where ye stand on these matters? I have no confidence in our captain.

[Montmorency]

I would support a mutiny, but I have some concerns.

Why is Andres not making an appearance, even though he has read my PMs and those of others? Why is he posting irrelevant stuff about his "Golden Hands" company, which sounds an awful lot like a front or shell organization?

And most troublingly, why does no one consider third-parties and their impact on the Town-French dynamic?

[Zack]

What does any of that have to do with the mutiny?

[Visor]

And most troublingly, why does no one consider third-parties and their impact on the Town-French dynamic?

Until I see evidence I can't fight against a threat I don't know exists.

I am sure there will be at least one third party, perhaps a Guardacosta agent or something from the last game - but it isn't relevant yet.

[Montmorency]

I want them on our minds. No mutiny circuses.

[Visor]

This is no circus. The captain is not a revolving door position.

[Lissa]

Vote: mutiny

What Kage is doing does not make sense.

[Ishmael]

Do the mutineers have a proposal for the new captain? I agree that Kage's actions as captain have been questionable, and removing him is all well and good, but it would nice to know who we're likely to be replacing him with. I'd be happy to vote for NotJim tomorrow, but I'm not sure if he'd still want to stand now he's seen the risks that go along with the captaincy position.

[Visor]

I've got two options in mind. NotJim or Double A.

[Visor]

NotJim: Been very townie in my talks with him. Didn't push for the captaincy at all. Even when it got close and he had a real chance, he did not attempt to bribe a single person or make deals with anyone. If he was French I think he would take the opportunity very quickly. He also has a good alibi last night.

Double A: Good alibi last night (even if it isn't the most helpful), been very level headed in our talks and discussion, hopefully scanned good by Andres. I've also played and hosted games with Double A as town recently and he is fitting the playstyle he has shown in those games.

[NotJimRV]

Perhaps we ought to consider another alternative for captain - start over with a fresh state, as they say.

[spaceman98]

I suggest that someone who was scanned innocent last night is made the new first mate. Andres can have the position back once he's investigated.

I second this proposal.


____________________________________________

Why are people vigging at this stage? Vigilante parties have very little to go off of, so their more likely to hit townies, so help the French scum.

_______________________________________

Good morning. The first mate Andres is still too hangover to wake up, but he is going to tell all how my and Double A´s investigation went once he wakes up. And to Visor and Zack, yes we are switching the roles of Double A and Andres once the investigation reveals Double A not a Frenchie and he is going to investigate Andres and someone else the coming night.

Now to the matters of the night. I think the matter of TFT does not need to be debated further. Some of you wanted him dead and got him dead, which i dont still understand why killing him was better business then at least robbing him blind first. Now i would really like to know who has the guts to tell if they attacked ATGP or spaceman98 and exactly why?

"once the investigation reveals Double A not a Frenchie"

Why so certain? This sounds like PIS.

Had the vig attemp succeeded how on earth it would have cleared anyone? Breath man and think.

By your logic you should have ordered the whole town to participate in 3-person vig groups. If you were correct, those that suceed would have had a Frenchman in them, and we would have had the game close to solved.

If the vig attempts suceeded we would know if any frenchmen were on those orders they would not be doing french things.

If they failed we would NOT know that. Succeeding is better than failing.

Suceeding also means someone is killed. If that someone is town, that brings the frenchies closer to victory. I'm not inclined to support runaway vigging at this stage.

Unless you think most of the town is recruitable (as oppose to recruitable people being rare)? If so, why do you think that?

Why not have everyone join 3-man vig groups? Why order people to protect and steal, Did Kage actually ORDER people to steal? If so, that's a clearly anti-town action on his part. Stealing doesn't help the town, it just helps one individual and hurts another. If Kage really ordered people to steal, then we should all mutiny, because that just doesn't make sense from a town perspectiveneither of which clear them of anything? You specifically tried to organize protections against vig targets, which would nullify your whole idea for clearing people through failed vig attempts (unless for some reason you believe the French can kill through protection)? Again, can you specifically reference what rule you're talking about? No one else can find the part that says Frenchies automatically make townie vig groups succeed regardless of numbers. I see no reason to believe that.


You did not answer any of these questions:


You just brushed this off and denied it, but whatever. As Visor pointed out you've been talking about certain people as if you know they're town, yet you keep dismissing this as false.


Why is being part of a vig group reason to block Visor?
How did you know Visor was in a vig group?
Is there some reason why spaceman and ATPG are bad kill targets? Why is killing them undesirable?
The justification you gave was based on the results - it "prevented a night kill". What was the original motive behind the block?
Do you think Visor is French? Why or why not? If not, why would you block him?

It seems like you blocked Visor because he was a vocal opponent of yours, not because of any suspicion of him.


What is wrong with vig killing in theory? What makes them worse than the lynch? Lynches generate more publically visible discussion in-thread
Why would you go to such efforts to disrupt them, meaning a significant number of players ended up wasting their time?

Do the mutineers have a proposal for the new captain? I agree that Kage's actions as captain have been questionable, and removing him is all well and good, but it would nice to know who we're likely to be replacing him with. I'd be happy to vote for NotJim tomorrow, but I'm not sure if he'd still want to stand now he's seen the risks that go along with the captaincy position.

Do we trust Andres? If so, then if we mutiny, we appoint one of the people he scanned.

Otherwise, I guess NotJim, since he was the alternative option yesterday?

______________________________

Overall: I agree with Kage that runaway vigging is a bad strategy. On the other hand, some of his posts look like PIS, and if Kage has actually been ordering people to steal at night, that's anti-town. I want elaboration on that if before I take a stance on the mutiny either way.

[Ishmael]

I feel bad helping to kill somebody off after they've only been captain for a single day, but unfortunately I don't think Kagemusha remaining as captain is in the best interests of the town. Sorry Kage.

vote: Mutiny

[Ishmael]

Why are people vigging at this stage? Vigilante parties have very little to go off of, so their more likely to hit townies, so help the French scum.

By that reasoning you should never lynch in the early stages if the game (if no lynch is an option), since the same conditions are met. The same argument holds for both vigging and lynching - it's a means for the townies to have a chance of killing scum, in a way that is difficult for them to counter. Plus, in a game with recruitment such as this, vigging has the added benefit of reducing the amount of time the mafia has to convert new members.

[Ituralde]

What be PIS, honest question here?

I do like to hear from Andres and Double A. After all Double A was the first to elect Kagemusha, Andres the second. It look to me they was pushin to elect Kage not the other way around.

[Visor]

@ Spaceman

Unless you think most of the town is recruitable (as oppose to recruitable people being rare)? If so, why do you think that?

If its anything like the other games, a lot of people are various variations of the Able Seamen role GH posted as a sample. Most town roles will be recruitable I'd imagine.

[Visor]

What be PIS, honest question here?

I do like to hear from Andres and Double A. After all Double A was the first to elect Kagemusha, Andres the second. It look to me they was pushin to elect Kage not the other way around.

Perfect Information Syndrome or TMI (too much information). Often done by mafia who accidentally say things that no townie could know (number of mafia, as a random example). In this instance we're saying that Kage has said both myself, Zack and AA are all town but he can't know that for sure if he is town - which leads us to believe he's mafia.

[Ishmael]

What be PIS, honest question here?

Perfect Information Syndrome. In the most blatant cases, it's when scum reveals information that a townie couldn't have known. Usually it tends to be more subtle/ambiguous, for example if somebody implicitly assumes a player is town (which the mafia would know with certainty, but a townie wouldn't).

I strongly suspect the abbreviation was made simply for the punning potential, mind .

EDIT: Gah, ninja'd by Visor.

[spaceman98]

Perhaps we ought to consider another alternative for captain - start over with a fresh state, as they say.

Who do you suggest if not yourself or Kage?

By that reasoning you should never lynch in the early stages if the game (if no lynch is an option), since the same conditions are met. The same argument holds for both vigging and lynching - it's a means for the townies to have a chance of killing scum, in a way that is difficult for them to counter. Plus, in a game with recruitment such as this, vigging has the added benefit of reducing the amount of time the mafia has to convert new members.

Lynching generates more discussion than vigging does in my experience. Early lynches often hit scum. In my experience, early viges do so much more rarely

@ Spaceman



If its anything like the other games, a lot of people are various variations of the Able Seamen role GH posted as a sample. Most town roles will be recruitable I'd imagine.

I guess this is a fair point. I wasn't in the first two games. Did recruitment mechanisms exist in them? How much did they threaten the town there?

[Visor]

Who do you suggest if not yourself or Kage?




Lynching generates more discussion than vigging does in my experience. Early lynches often hit scum. In my experience, early viges do so much more rarely




I guess this is a fair point. I wasn't in the first two games. Did recruitment mechanisms exist in them? How much did they threaten the town there?

There was some recruitment in the second game (I wasn't in the first) but the scum got blown out by the town by night five or six or something so it wasn't a big issue (scum were lazy, missed orders and all that I think).

Vigging helps clear out a lot of scummy players IMO.

Double A is a good choice if clean IMO, thoughts?

[Ituralde]

Thanks for enlighteninginging... helpin me!

Visorslash you be saying DoubleA and NotJimRV be having a good alibi for last night.
DoubleA because he threw ye in the brig, information we have from you.
What be NotJimRVs alibi then?