Terror Attack: 130 Dead in Paris

[Fisherking]

@Papewaio

I don’t guess you see the fallacy in you argument.

Oil is only a commodity. Your whole argument is off the mark.

The threat is an ideology. Financing source is immaterial.

The wealthy and powerful will always find others to do their bidding.

To destroy the funding source you eventually have to destroy the states which provide the power behind it.

[Fragony]

IS just claimed attack. What's worrying is that they according to witnesses were fluent in French. So from ALgeria or homegrown.

[Pannonian]

@Papewaio

I don’t guess you see the fallacy in you argument.

Oil is only a commodity. Your whole argument is off the mark.

The threat is an ideology. Financing source is immaterial.

The wealthy and powerful will alway find others to do their bidding.

To destroy the funding source you eventually have to destroy the states which provide the power behind it.

Or prevent the radlicalisation centres like Pakistan and others from accepting oil money to fund their training camps. Which we have no right to do so as they're sovereign countries. The best we can do whilst minimising the amount of change we have to make is probably the control scenario I described above. It still infringes on existing liberties, but it does so for people who are going to known dodgy countries, and it allows existing Muslims the option of either staying with their western countries, or follow their Islamic identity abroad.

[Idaho]

The price of our middle east wars will be these relatively small flowering of violence. It's a tragedy, an outrage and a crime. It's also just a tiny sample of what has been happening in Afghanistan,Iraq and Syria. All those refugees are running from atrocities like this that have destroyed their homes and communities.

Out governments didn't create these groups. They didn't write their ideologies. But they prepared the ground. They fed the soil. And they paid and maintained the systems that brought them into being.

What's my point? That the tough talk, violence and oppression that will be enacted because of this terrible attack will not help.

[Pannonian]

The price of our middle east wars will be these relatively small flowering of violence. It's a tragedy, an outrage and a crime. It's also just a tiny sample of what has been happening in Afghanistan,Iraq and Syria. All those refugees are running from atrocities like this that have destroyed their homes and communities.

Out governments didn't create these groups. They didn't write their ideologies. But they prepared the ground. They fed the soil. And they paid and maintained the systems that brought them into being.

What's my point? That the tough talk, violence and oppression that will be enacted because of this terrible attack will not help.

I wish we don't do any kind of talk at all. No talk of imposing democracy and freedom or other outside concepts in places where we're not welcome. No admission of Syrians or other Muslim outsides either. They can have their world. We can have ours. Whatever happens in their world will have nothing to do with us, whether for better or for worse.

[Idaho]

The point is that you can't impose democracy. Democracy is the will of the people. You have to ACCEPT democracy.

When the gazans elect hamas we have to accept democracy and work with it. In Iran we defended a dictator against the democratic will and when that will exploded we were left with the mess that is modern Iran. In Saudi we did the same and created a state that exported radical politicised islam. Etc. It's all so tedious and repetitive.

[Pannonian]

The point is that you can't impose democracy. Democracy is the will of the people. You have to ACCEPT democracy.

When the gazans elect hamas we have to accept democracy and work with it. In Iran we defended a dictator against the democratic will and when that will exploded we were left with the mess that is modern Iran. In Saudi we did the same and created a state that exported radical politicised islam. Etc. It's all so tedious and repetitive.

So let us stop here. Rather tan agonise over what we've done in the past, which we can't do squat to correct, as our every action is considered wrong in some way or other, we should just raise our borders to the Muslim world, which is where most of the trouble comes from. What they do in their world is their business, and none of ours. If anyone then chooses to become part of that world, let them; just don't allow them back. I was raised a liberal, and in most respects I remain one, and I opposed the attack on Iraq. But I'm tired of (far right) Muslims taking offence at our every action, and bleeding heart liberals telling me to be guilty about things I had nothing to do with. I enjoy the many cultures that London contains, and I wouldn't want to homogenise it. But there are some positions that are antithetical to the liberal world that I love. Islamism is one.

[Idaho]

So let us stop here. Rather tan agonise over what we've done in the past, which we can't do squat to correct, as our every action is considered wrong in some way or other, we should just raise our borders to the Muslim world, which is where most of the trouble comes from. What they do in their world is their business, and none of ours. If anyone then chooses to become part of that world, let them; just don't allow them back. I was raised a liberal, and in most respects I remain one, and I opposed the attack on Iraq. But I'm tired of (far right) Muslims taking offence at our every action, and bleeding heart liberals telling me to be guilty about things I had nothing to do with. I enjoy the many cultures that London contains, and I wouldn't want to homogenise it. But there are some positions that are antithetical to the liberal world that I love. Islamism is one.

All I see here is emotional response. Why do you give a crap what right wing Muslims get offended by? And who is asking you to feel guilty?

Look at the situation rationally. What are it's causes? Then start to work out what needs to be done. The same knee jerk responses are coming out from the same mouths. Insanity is doing the same thing again and again while expecting different results.

[Fragony]

The point is that you can't impose democracy. Democracy is the will of the people. You have to ACCEPT democracy.

When the gazans elect hamas we have to accept democracy and work with it. In Iran we defended a dictator against the democratic will and when that will exploded we were left with the mess that is modern Iran. In Saudi we did the same and created a state that exported radical politicised islam. Etc. It's all so tedious and repetitive.

Are you going to respect the will of parties that strongly disagree with immigration? Not directed at you but the (radical) left has their 'ground-troops' so to say. Islamism wouldn't be a problem in the west without multiculturalists.

[Kagemusha]

Apparently one of the attackers had a Syrian passport. Like i have been saying from the start in the Isis thread. We cant defend from terrorists who hate everything we are and they are poised to succeed with their attacks every once a while.

Only way to deal with these nazis of Islamic world is to deploy at Syria and Iraq and either bring to justice or kill every last one of these lunatics. More we wait harder it will become.

[Brenus]

"France lost this war when the sons and grandsons of immigrants were ostracized from society. This chapter has already been written."
Minister of Justice: Rachida Dhati: Typical ostracized immigrants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachida_Dati
Rama Ayad: Another one oppressed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama_Yade
Najat Vallaud-Belkacem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najat_Vallaud-Belkacem

My dear, if the Islamist attack France it is because France represents all what they hate. France embraces life when they embrace death, France values liberty, they value slavery, France values equality, they value discrimination, France values Fraternity, they value racism.
France embraces science, secularism, they prefer superstition and obscurantism.
To summary it, let give me the message from a caricaturist Joann SFAR:
"Friends from the whole World, thanks you for your #pray for Paris, but we don't need more Religion! Our faith goes to music! Kisses! Life! Champagne! Joy! Paris is about life".

They value death, so they attack life

[Fisherking]

Or prevent the radlicalisation centres like Pakistan and others from accepting oil money to fund their training camps. Which we have no right to do so as they're sovereign countries. The best we can do whilst minimising the amount of change we have to make is probably the control scenario I described above. It still infringes on existing liberties, but it does so for people who are going to known dodgy countries, and it allows existing Muslims the option of either staying with their western countries, or follow their Islamic identity abroad.

I haven’t the time ATM to show where your earlier idea is wrong. Maybe later. RL calls.

[Papewaio]

K

@Papewaio

I don’t guess you see the fallacy in you argument.

Oil is only a commodity. Your whole argument is off the mark.

The threat is an ideology. Financing source is immaterial.

The wealthy and powerful will always find others to do their bidding.

To destroy the funding source you eventually have to destroy the states which provide the power behind it.

As a rule of thumb the more oil in a country the more fundamentalist the region gets.

Compare Singapore vs Malaysia vs Indonesia. Singapore has no oil. It has had to create a smart work force to create wealth. It's neighbors on the other hand have used mineral and oil wealth. Malaysia is not where near as progressive as Singapore, despite Singapore once being part of Malaysia. Malaysia is far more dominated by religious sects as they give legitimacy to their government.

Compare Saudi Arabia vs Iraq vs Syria vs Turkey (North South line, more oil in the South more Fundies too). Turkey is a Muslim democracy, has the least oil. Syria has some but not a lot of oil and has a Secular dictator which by most ME levels wasn't that bad mind you that's comparing to Libya and Iraq. You get into Saudi Arabia and you have a kingdom that has two main things propping it up. The tribe in charge has massive oil reserves and the support of one of not the most fundamentalist sects in Islam.

[AE Bravo]

Compare Saudi Arabia vs Iraq vs Syria vs Turkey (North South line, more oil in the South more Fundies too)

It's also the foundations of the states. Turkish flag is the traditional crescent, while the Saudi flag is the sword below "No God But God" anachronism. Saudis have successfully characterized Islam as a violent struggle. The country was built by the events almost identical to what's going on in Europe and IS. Breaking shrines, executions, genocide, and conquest.

This is all a result of that revivalist movement that is now the Muslim identity.