IMMIGRATION thread

[Sarmatian]

All EU countries closing their borders because Germany is expecting 3.6 million migrants at about 2020. That plum workhorse expects others to fix it for her but nobody wants to, and is going to, what you see there on that map is countries that are back to controlling their borders, these millions are just about all on the shoulders of the Germans, who can't house them, can't provide anything but basic needs, and most of all can't provide them with any prospects. Promises have been made that can't reasonably be kept and nobody is going to like that. I assume you mean well, so do I, what kind of life are these people going to have? They would be better off in the place they came from, get away for a while where it's safe and go back and rebuild.

3.6 million migrants by 2020 is about 0.7 million per year. The lowest number of migrants that came to Germany in the last cca. 25 years is 0.66 million in 2006. The highest number was more than 1.5 million in 1992, while the average is over 1 million per year.

Lebanon is housing 1.2 million refugees at the moment. For comparison sake, Lebanon is 35 times smaller than Germany in area and 18 times smaller than Germany in population.

The fact that countries are manning the borders doesn't mean they're closed and refugees move even though that map shows red lines.

The doom and gloom theories are quite far fetched, and like in most cases, whoever wrote that article is too stupid or lazy (or has an agenda) to put the numbers they see into proper context.

[Snowhobbit]

3.6 million migrants by 2020 is about 0.7 million per year. The lowest number of migrants that came to Germany in the last cca. 25 years is 0.66 million in 2006. The highest number was more than 1.5 million in 1992, while the average is over 1 million per year.

Lebanon is housing 1.2 million refugees at the moment. For comparison sake, Lebanon is 35 times smaller than Germany in area and 18 times smaller than Germany in population.

The fact that countries are manning the borders doesn't mean they're closed and refugees move even though that map shows red lines.

The doom and gloom theories are quite far fetched, and like in most cases, whoever wrote that article is too stupid or lazy (or has an agenda) to put the numbers they see into proper context.

For the sake of intellectual honesty, is there any difference in how Lebanon and Germany treat their refugees? How many refugee tent towns are there in Germany? How many of those refugees in Lebanon have a work permit and a path to citizenship? How much does a refugee cost in Lebanon (for upkeep) as compared to how much the German government spends? And can we really compare the movement of EU citizens to the refugee stream?

[Sarmatian]

For the sake of intellectual honesty, is there any difference in how Lebanon and Germany treat their refugees? How many refugee tent towns are there in Germany? How many of those refugees in Lebanon have a work permit and a path to citizenship? How much does a refugee cost in Lebanon (for upkeep) as compared to how much the German government spends? And can we really compare the movement of EU citizens to the refugee stream?

The point being? Germany spends more on refugees?

[Snowhobbit]

The point being? Germany spends more on refugees?

The point being that we cannot compare numbers without comparing costs and obligations, nor can we compare a net-cost with a net-gain group. There is something behind those numbers, you cannot compare apples and oranges like you are doing. You did not address the last question.

[Sarmatian]

The point being that we cannot compare numbers without comparing costs and obligations, nor can we compare a net-cost with a net-gain group. There is something behind those numbers, you cannot compare apples and oranges like you are doing. You did not address the last question.

I wasn't saying it's a walk in the park, I was just pointing out that Germany and EU on the whole won't crumble under the pressure, not even close.

As for the answer to the last question, you can pick one of two:

1) Not all migrants before were EU citizens, especially as many were coming before the legal concept of EU citizen existed.
2) Right wingers were using the same arguments for eastern European immigrants (not enough room, not enough jobs, uncivilized, prone to committing violent crimes, uneducated...)

[Snowhobbit]

I wasn't saying it's a walk in the park, I was just pointing out that Germany and EU on the whole won't crumble under the pressure, not even close.

As for the answer to the last question, you can pick one of two:

1) Not all migrants before were EU citizens, especially as many were coming before the legal concept of EU citizen existed.
2) Right wingers were using the same arguments for eastern European immigrants (not enough room, not enough jobs, uncivilized, prone to committing violent crimes, uneducated...)

The EU and free movement certainly existed in 2006 as you mention. It goes as far back as the 60's and even further back if you go to the origins of it.
Again, it would be nice if you hinged your arguments on things like numbers and facts. What are the employment numbers of the two respective groups? Which group is a net-cost and a net-benefit? What is the extent of criminality within each group? Does Poland practice Tarrasque or however that is spelled, but they keep it secret from the rest of us?

I would not be surprised to know that you've not been keeping up on news in Sweden, we are rather small and far away. Are you aware of why we "closed" our borders?

[Pannonian]

I wasn't saying it's a walk in the park, I was just pointing out that Germany and EU on the whole won't crumble under the pressure, not even close.

As for the answer to the last question, you can pick one of two:

1) Not all migrants before were EU citizens, especially as many were coming before the legal concept of EU citizen existed.
2) Right wingers were using the same arguments for eastern European immigrants (not enough room, not enough jobs, uncivilized, prone to committing violent crimes, uneducated...)

Unlike eastern Europeans, whom I've never had any problems with, Muslims in Britain (and AFAIK in other countries too) are prone to producing traitors apt to kill other Britons in following their religion. With a fair bit of support from those who aren't actively doing that. Even the Irish republicans didn't glory as much in killing civilians as these bastards. I don't want any more Islamists here.

[Slyspy]

Why help? Because they are here (or are on their way) and because it is more palatable than machine gunning them in the boats and at the fences. Next question.

[Sarmatian]

The EU and free movement certainly existed in 2006 as you mention. It goes as far back as the 60's and even further back if you go to the origins of it.

Not in this form in 1992, and also EU was much smaller, and that was the record year for immigration in Germany, more than 1.5 million.

Again, it would be nice if you hinged your arguments on things like numbers and facts. What are the employment numbers of the two respective groups? Which group is a net-cost and a net-benefit?

It is relatively hard to find complete data. Most works on the subject have to make a lot of assumptions, but generally the consensus is that immigrants are a net gain, especially in the long run, over 50 years or so.
For instance, a study from Oxford university found that if the current migration levels remain stable (+140k per year), public debt in UK would be at about a 100% of the GDP in 2063. If there is a higher level of immigration(+260k per year) the public debt would be 75% of the GDP in 2063. With zero net immigration, public debt would grow to 150% of the GDP in 2063.

All those findings need to be taken with a pinch of salt, indeed, but since there is no definitive proof either way, the best we currently have are educated guesses, and they suggest that immigrants on the whole are a net gain, especially in stable, organized countries.

What is the extent of criminality within each group? Does Poland practice Tarrasque or however that is spelled, but they keep it secret from the rest of us?

I tend to connect criminal activity more with poverty and lack of options in life in general than with culture or religion. Trying to find relevant data is hard because googling "crime" and "immigrants" in any way shape or form tends to bring back thousand of anti-immigrants blogs and activist site which bear no relation with reality.

I would not be surprised to know that you've not been keeping up on news in Sweden, we are rather small and far away. Are you aware of why we "closed" our borders?

No. Why did you?

Unlike eastern Europeans, whom I've never had any problems with, Muslims in Britain (and AFAIK in other countries too) are prone to producing traitors apt to kill other Britons in following their religion. With a fair bit of support from those who aren't actively doing that. Even the Irish republicans didn't glory as much in killing civilians as these bastards. I don't want any more Islamists here.

That was you. Don't tell me you weren't aware of the right wing narrative of Poles and other eastern Europeans stealing UK jobs, or just being lazy ***** who collect benefits. Studies found that they were better educated than Brits, contributed more fiscally, less likely to be unemployed and receive benefits and so on...

For the other part, I completely understand why are you so revolted, but answer me this, please - if a Muslim Briton kills other Britons, that is betrayal. What's the word you use when a non-Muslim Briton kills other Britons?