IMMIGRATION thread

**Sarmatian** · 02-26-2016, 16:04

Originally Posted by Pannonian

I've not seen many cases of non-Muslim Britons killing other Britons in pursuit of an ideology, with an established community supporting them in their actions. Our society is well set up to deal with murderers and other individuals who kill with individual motives. It's not so well set up to deal with people who kill with ideological motives with the aim of targeting the softest targets possible. Heck, even the Irish republicans had qualms about targeting civilians, and they always kept up contacts and (mostly) kept their word on agreements.

No instances of Irishmen born in England who may have helped in some way, shape or form, IRA in committing some crimes?

**Pannonian** · 02-26-2016, 16:26

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

No instances of Irishmen born in England who may have helped in some way, shape or form, IRA in committing some crimes?

So you ignored the bit about the republicans having qualms about targeting civilians, and their always keeping contacts open and mostly keeping to their agreements. After the worst atrocity in the Troubles, the bombing at Omagh, RIRA refrained from further civilian targeting, and IIRC parts of them split away, while the rump PIRA assisted in making sure that no such things happened again as far as was in their control. That's terrorism with politics in mind, and when politics is involved, our society can deal with it.

Contrast with the 7/7 bombings, which killed even more than the Omagh incident. After the Omagh bombing, the various IRAs refrained from further attacks as killing civilians wasn't their primary aim, and indeed went against their primary aim, which was political. A few weeks after the 7/7 attacks, there were another series of attempted attacks in south London, thwarted only by the incompetence of the perpetrators. There wasn't any political aim to these attacks. The only aim was to kill as many civilians as possible. And after one incident of killing dozens of civilians, there wasn't a group responsible that was shocked by the death toll, that decided to stop further attacks as their political aim was undermined by the lethality of the attack. Instead, that first incident inspired another attack, without any political aim, but only with the aim of killing as many soft targets as possible.

There is a world of difference between terrorism with political aims, and terrorism that only tries to kill as many innocents as possible. The former requires that there is someone that we can deal with. We can cope with that. The latter doesn't have anyone that we can deal with, and the only thing we can do is suck it up. The Irish republicans were shocked by the death toll of Omagh, and no longer wanted anything to do with the attackers. The Islamists celebrated the death toll of the 7/7 bombings, and were inspired to attempt further attacks. While we may differ in politics, the Irish republicans are still recognisably of the same world as us. Islamists are completely alien to us.

**Brenus** · 02-26-2016, 16:52

"There is a world of difference between terrorism with political aims, and terrorism that only tries to kill as many innocents as possible" I understand what you are saying. But killing innocents has as well a political aim.

**Sarmatian** · 02-26-2016, 16:57

Originally Posted by Pannonian

So you ignored the bit about the republicans having qualms about targeting civilians, and their always keeping contacts open and mostly keeping to their agreements. After the worst atrocity in the Troubles, the bombing at Omagh, RIRA refrained from further civilian targeting, and IIRC parts of them split away, while the rump PIRA assisted in making sure that no such things happened again as far as was in their control. That's terrorism with politics in mind, and when politics is involved, our society can deal with it.

Contrast with the 7/7 bombings, which killed even more than the Omagh incident. After the Omagh bombing, the various IRAs refrained from further attacks as killing civilians wasn't their primary aim, and indeed went against their primary aim, which was political. A few weeks after the 7/7 attacks, there were another series of attempted attacks in south London, thwarted only by the incompetence of the perpetrators. There wasn't any political aim to these attacks. The only aim was to kill as many civilians as possible. And after one incident of killing dozens of civilians, there wasn't a group responsible that was shocked by the death toll, that decided to stop further attacks as their political aim was undermined by the lethality of the attack. Instead, that first incident inspired another attack, without any political aim, but only with the aim of killing as many soft targets as possible.

There is a world of difference between terrorism with political aims, and terrorism that only tries to kill as many innocents as possible. The former requires that there is someone that we can deal with. We can cope with that. The latter doesn't have anyone that we can deal with, and the only thing we can do is suck it up. The Irish republicans were shocked by the death toll of Omagh, and no longer wanted anything to do with the attackers. The Islamists celebrated the death toll of the 7/7 bombings, and were inspired to attempt further attacks. While we may differ in politics, the Irish republicans are still recognisably of the same world as us. Islamists are completely alien to us.

Putting aside at the moment the whole notion of better terrorism, I'm primarily interested in this part

There wasn't any political aim to these attacks

Wasn't there? Since Russian involvement in Syria, there has been a quite a few terror attacks on Russian soil or on Russian citizens abroad. Previous terror attacks mostly involved Muslims from their own sphere of influence, rather than Muslims from the Middle East. We in Yugoslavia didn't have problems with Irish terrorists, you guys in the UK didn't have problems with Croatian terrorists.

While you may argue that UK isn't involved in anything happening in the Middle East, regardless if that's true or not, they do not perceive it that way.

So, I wouldn't really say there's no connection with politics.

**Pannonian** · 02-26-2016, 17:07

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Putting aside at the moment the whole notion of better terrorism, I'm primarily interested in this part

Wasn't there? Since Russian involvement in Syria, there has been a quite a few terror attacks on Russian soil or on Russian citizens abroad. Previous terror attacks mostly involved Muslims from their own sphere of influence, rather than Muslims from the Middle East. We in Yugoslavia didn't have problems with Irish terrorists, you guys in the UK didn't have problems with Croatian terrorists.

While you may argue that UK isn't involved in anything happening in the Middle East, regardless if that's true or not, they do not perceive it that way.

So, I wouldn't really say there's no connection with politics.

If there's a political aim, who do we talk to to prevent further attacks?

**Sarmatian** · 02-26-2016, 17:38

Originally Posted by Pannonian

If there's a political aim, who do we talk to to prevent further attacks?

Those close to the top of the relevant organizations would be my guess. What would happen afterwards is anyone's guess.

**Pannonian** · 02-26-2016, 17:44

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Those close to the top of the relevant organizations would be my guess. What would happen afterwards is anyone's guess.

So what's the relevant organisation?

**Sarmatian** · 02-26-2016, 18:17

Originally Posted by Pannonian

So what's the relevant organisation?

Relevant organizations. More than one. ISIS, Al Nusra and so on. My guess is that their demands would be practical, but totally unacceptable.

**Snowhobbit** · 02-26-2016, 19:06

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Putting aside at the moment the whole notion of better terrorism, I'm primarily interested in this part

Wasn't there? Since Russian involvement in Syria, there has been a quite a few terror attacks on Russian soil or on Russian citizens abroad. Previous terror attacks mostly involved Muslims from their own sphere of influence, rather than Muslims from the Middle East. We in Yugoslavia didn't have problems with Irish terrorists, you guys in the UK didn't have problems with Croatian terrorists.

While you may argue that UK isn't involved in anything happening in the Middle East, regardless if that's true or not, they do not perceive it that way.

So, I wouldn't really say there's no connection with politics.

Could you enlighten me on the Swedish involvement in the Middle East? Since we were also blessed with a suicide bomber.

**Snowhobbit** · 02-26-2016, 19:11

To add on to the whole scam pulled by a lot of grown men, here we have a "13 year old" who won a local 600meter sprint. Ctrl+F Pojkar födda -03 http://www5.idrottonline.se/GefleIFF...GDGIFsfinaler/

**Husar** · 02-26-2016, 19:29

Originally Posted by Snowhobbit

Could you enlighten me on the Swedish involvement in the Middle East? Since we were also blessed with a suicide bomber.

http://www.thelocal.se/20151004/300-...join-extremist

**Snowhobbit** · 02-26-2016, 19:39

Originally Posted by Husar

http://www.thelocal.se/20151004/300-...join-extremist

Right, but this is long after our suicide bomber, and I believe he would be pleased by that development ;)

And to add to the post above, our so called 13 year old actually managed to come in 2nd in the 60meter sprint. Honestly I'd be ashamed if I couldn't beat 13 year olds in any kind of physical competition.