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  1. #1
    Banned Snowhobbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bomb attacks on Brussels airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    "What excuse? Who said poverty is an excuse for murder? Stop making things up." Where did you mentioned poverty? Stop putting words in my mouth.
    Poverty, feelings of exclusion/humiliation, lack of future, alienation are reasons for "radicalisation". I went through this as a late teenager/young adult. But I didn't choose to go for a pro-slavery, racist, xenophobe, discriminatory ideology. I went political then I joined the army, where all this anger and streams of violence were used, channelled and finally rested. I am still political, leftist, as I still remember these years and the absolute injustice of the social determination.
    But, these criminals never went political. They went petty criminals, most of them (the ones we speak about, not the Bourgeois ones) choosing always the easiest way. Even their final choice was to rely not on the effort of an ascesis, a study of the Holly texts and their interpretation, but a short cut: Killings and suicide to reach a God and the rewards...
    Trying to find out why someone does something is not the same as trying to excuse that behaviour. A key factor in preventing these things in the future is to stop the radicalization that happens, and to do that we have to figure out why it happens. For example why it did not happen with you or your family but it happened with these men who have mostly blown themselves up.

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  2. #2
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bomb attacks on Brussels airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowhobbit View Post
    Trying to find out why someone does something is not the same as trying to excuse that behaviour. A key factor in preventing these things in the future is to stop the radicalization that happens, and to do that we have to figure out why it happens. For example why it did not happen with you or your family but it happened with these men who have mostly blown themselves up.
    You seem to assume that we are not dealling with a fully-fledged ideoligy, and of course social-economic are also a factor but wouldn't be what I would be looking. People have the tendency to think that everybody thinks like they do themselves, follow the same reasonings. You don't have to disregard social-economic factors to acknowledge an ideoligy.
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-24-2016 at 09:13.

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    Banned Snowhobbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bomb attacks on Brussels airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    You seem to assume that we are not dealling with a fully-fledged ideoligy, and of course social-economic are also a factor but wouldn't be what I would be looking. People have the tendency to think that everybody thinks like they do themselves, follow the same reasonings. You don't have to disregard social-economic factors to acknowledge an ideoligy.
    I'm fully aware that these people are driven by a violent ideology, but the question is why they sign on to that. They are not born murders etc, and it is key that we figure out how to stop the recruitment. Like I posted before, stop Saudi-funded mosques is one thing, but we also have to look at the individuals. I know that in UK there are programs where youth leaders and Imams work together to stop these kids and lead them to better thoughts before it goes too far. Likely a much cheaper and effective way than highly expensive security measures (which might be needed and justified also).

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bomb attacks on Brussels airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowhobbit View Post
    I'm fully aware that these people are driven by a violent ideology, but the question is why they sign on to that. They are not born murders etc, and it is key that we figure out how to stop the recruitment. Like I posted before, stop Saudi-funded mosques is one thing, but we also have to look at the individuals. I know that in UK there are programs where youth leaders and Imams work together to stop these kids and lead them to better thoughts before it goes too far. Likely a much cheaper and effective way than highly expensive security measures (which might be needed and justified also).
    Works for some. But I am ok with things like this happening from time to time. We should learn from the Mossad and take out dangerous people imho

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bomb attacks on Brussels airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Works for some. But I am ok with things like this happening from time to time. We should learn from the Mossad and take out dangerous people imho
    Drone strikes in our cities?


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bomb attacks on Brussels airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Drone strikes in our cities?
    We are training eagles to take out drones, not kidding. But that apart, I think that high-profile should be seen as agents of something that's hostile. Why should assymatrical warfare exist only in hotspots, seems old-fashioned to me. And I already agree with every objection you have against it in advance so don't bother
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-24-2016 at 12:09.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bomb attacks on Brussels airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Why should assymatrical warfare exist only in hotspots, seems old-fashioned to me.
    Why should we turn our countries into war zones if there is no need to do so? Seems silly to me.


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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bomb attacks on Brussels airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowhobbit View Post
    Trying to find out why someone does something is not the same as trying to excuse that behaviour. A key factor in preventing these things in the future is to stop the radicalization that happens, and to do that we have to figure out why it happens. For example why it did not happen with you or your family but it happened with these men who have mostly blown themselves up.
    You're right of course, cause =/= justification.

    Since Charlie Hebdo it's been commonly known that many islamist terrorists have had criminal careers before they became religious thugs. I'd be interested in knowing more about the psychology behind such "conversions". Maybe at some level these people are aware that their violent behaviour is bad. And they're receptive to an ideology that says violence isn't bad at all, at least not when directed against the "other". That they don't need to feel guilty about whatever they did in the past, because the only people who matter are "true muslims".

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    Default Re: Bomb attacks on Brussels airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    You're right of course, cause =/= justification.

    Since Charlie Hebdo it's been commonly known that many islamist terrorists have had criminal careers before they became religious thugs. I'd be interested in knowing more about the psychology behind such "conversions". Maybe at some level these people are aware that their violent behaviour is bad. And they're receptive to an ideology that says violence isn't bad at all, at least not when directed against the "other". That they don't need to feel guilty about whatever they did in the past, because the only people who matter are "true muslims".
    I think in the case of criminals it is more about seeing redemption and salvation, an easy way out of hell and into heaven, with the love and respect of their peers and idols. They are of course also excellent targets, already having shown willingness to use violence to get what they want.

    Add to that feeling even more outside of society than most of their neighbours, and the forgiving of past sins and promise of heaven might be very appealing to the right person.

  10. #10
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bomb attacks on Brussels airport

    Once read the term atonement by proxy, was not in this context though. What everybody says about anyone probably applies for some. But it's a much easier licence to kill
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-24-2016 at 15:17.

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