Israel Thread

[Husar]

Eh, most of the left doesn't like Israel because Israel is on the right, the country votes largely based on fear and therefore ultra-conservative, has people who believe they have a god-given right to take other peoples' land away (and are hardly stopped by the government when they do it) and so on. Show me another modern country that acts like that and is liked by most people. North Korea, Russia, ISIS?

I think the government has slowly come around to stopping the illegal settlement practices and at the same time it seems criticism has gone down...

[Myth]

Taking Palestinian land because of might makes right and developing nuclear weapons are the two things I really dislike about Israel.

[Fragony]

Eh, most of the left doesn't like Israel because Israel is on the right, the country votes largely based on fear and therefore ultra-conservative, has people who believe they have a god-given right to take other peoples' land away (and are hardly stopped by the government when they do it) and so on. Show me another modern country that acts like that and is liked by most people. North Korea, Russia, ISIS?

I think the government has slowly come around to stopping the illegal settlement practices and at the same time it seems criticism has gone down...

There is more than enough that is rightfully critised. But I it's how selective the crititism is that kinda makes me suspicious about why people are bothered by Israel's behaviour so much, there are much worse regimes that don't have a magnifying glass hovering over it. If the most outspoken critisers have a really good reason to convince me that it isn't because it is a jewish state I am open for their arguments. Won't automatically assume anti-semitism but I suspect that in many a case it actually is. A mild version, not like nazi's, but some sort of inherent distrust. Israel deserves to be critised, won't say it doesn't.

[Gilrandir]

Israel is on the right, the country votes largely based on fear

... and not groundless fear. So cut them a slack.

[Fragony]

... and not groundless fear. So cut them a slack.

Ya. without excusing the colonists (who aren't exactly popular) it shouldn't be that hard to admit that Israel exists in a very hostile place

[Husar]

There is more than enough that is rightfully critised. But I it's how selective the crititism is that kinda makes me suspicious about why people are bothered by Israel's behaviour so much, there are much worse regimes that don't have a magnifying glass hovering over it. If the most outspoken critisers have a really good reason to convince me that it isn't because it is a jewish state I am open for their arguments. Won't automatically assume anti-semitism but I suspect that in many a case it actually is. A mild version, not like nazi's, but some sort of inherent distrust. Israel deserves to be critised, won't say it doesn't.

It's about as selective as the support, a lot of countries throw weapons, technology and other support at Israel in a way that other allies don't get it. And the whole Holocaust thing put Jews in an even bigger spotlight. This also makes a lot of people think that people who claim to know what it is like to be treated in an incredibly unfair way should know better than to do the same to others.

... and not groundless fear. So cut them a slack.

Taking more land away from other people and talking smack about the neighbors will surely remove the reasons for that fear sooner rather than later.
When was the last time peaceful coexistence was successfully enforced with guns? Crimea?

[AE Bravo]

Daesh in suits.

[Fragony]

It's about as selective as the support, a lot of countries throw weapons, technology and other support at Israel in a way that other allies don't get it. And the whole Holocaust thing put Jews in an even bigger spotlight. This also makes a lot of people think that people who claim to know what it is like to be treated in an incredibly unfair way should know better than to do the same to other

Also selective sure. But where are Israel critisers when other countries are building a wall, or even gassing tunnels or flooding them. A lot of Palestinians are from Libanon and they are not allowed to get back. If you ask me who has the most right to behave this way I really can't not excuse them or at least understand it. As for taking land, well they didn't start the war, Europe is full of shifting borders who are we to lecture them.

[Husar]

Also selective sure. But where are Israel critisers when other countries are building a wall, or even gassing tunnels or flooding them. A lot of Palestinians are from Libanon and they are not allowed to get back. If you ask me who has the most right to behave this way I really can't not excuse them or at least understand it. As for taking land, well they didn't start the war, Europe is full of shifting borders who are we to lecture them.

Apparently I don't stalk Israel's criticizers as closely as you do, so I can't really tell you where they are in other cases of atrocities.
Not sure what else you are saying, which borders have shifted in Europe since WW2?

[Fragony]

Apparently I don't stalk Israel's criticizers as closely as you do, so I can't really tell you where they are in other cases of atrocities.
Not sure what else you are saying, which borders have shifted in Europe since WW2?

Your own for example, and the Polish weren't exactly very kind to Germans.

love this animation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iha3OS8ShYs what are we yapping about really

[Gilrandir]

Taking more land away from other people and talking smack about the neighbors will surely remove the reasons for that fear sooner rather than later.
When was the last time peaceful coexistence was successfully enforced with guns? Crimea?

When Israel proclaimed its foundation it was made war upon at once before it started taking land form others. Later it happened again and again, not to mention constant terrorist attacks inside the country. Arab countries which border on Israel have an issue with the very existence of Israel. Wouldn't it make anyone talk smack of those who do it? A country which lives in the perpetual state of alert (or war, for a change) is not likely to act differently, talk differently or vote differently.

[Fragony]

Ya. Violence against jew by the usual suspects, are there any excuses for that as well, or mayyyyyybe a lot of muslims just hate jews. And a (very succesful) Jewish state outright offends them. Especially because they will never match them in anything.

[AE Bravo]

You mean Arab countries don't match them in anything. "Muslim countries" is an overstatement. Also, Israel is an illegitimate country, an anachronism as long as the current regime stands. When it reforms its discrimination against its very own citizens as a democratic state than you can talk about how it has the right to do anything.

Who knows, maybe they will someday.

[Fragony]

You mean Arab countries don't match them in anything. "Muslim countries" is an overstatement

Fair enough. But has got to hurt to see Israel do so well when one thinks islam is superior

[Pannonian]

You mean Arab countries don't match them in anything. "Muslim countries" is an overstatement. Also, Israel is an illegitimate country, an anachronism as long as the current regime stands. When it reforms its discrimination against its very own citizens as a democratic state than you can talk about how it has the right to do anything.

Who knows, maybe they will someday.

Israel is by some distance the best of an exceptionally bad bunch. It doesn't make them good by western standards. But it makes them very good indeed by middle eastern standards. It's probably best to accept them as a middle eastern country, and judge them by these standards, than to think of them as a western country and judge them by these standards.

[Husar]

Your own for example, and the Polish weren't exactly very kind to Germans.

love this animation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iha3OS8ShYs what are we yapping about really

I thought you jusdge a country by the standards of its time and not by comparatively ancient ones?
That is why I asked about the many changes AFTER WW2, because in the time frame you linked to there was no Israeli state for the most part.
If we're going to apply medieval standards now, how about we burn you as a witcher? I saw you flying around a clock tower tonight...

When Israel proclaimed its foundation it was made war upon at once before it started taking land form others. Later it happened again and again, not to mention constant terrorist attacks inside the country. Arab countries which border on Israel have an issue with the very existence of Israel. Wouldn't it make anyone talk smack of those who do it? A country which lives in the perpetual state of alert (or war, for a change) is not likely to act differently, talk differently or vote differently.

Israel was basically founded with a terror campaign and the establishment of the state was basically forced on a lot of people. I'm sorry that it surprises you that people are angry if something is forced upon them. The major reason Israelis are scared today is probably not that all the neighbors will invade again because it seems a lot of the neighbors have gotten used to it. What scares them are the terrorist organizations, some of which exist because Israelis settle on land these people formerly owned and others of which do indeed exist because of older grudges apparently.

If you support Israel conquering land for security though, then surely you agree with Russia conquering Crimea to secure its harbor?

[Fragony]

Who conquered Crimea, military was already there and and the population voted for it