Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
Eh, the state of Israel was not exactly founded by having the people of the region vote on it. So by your own argument, it is the fault of the Israelis that they themselves live in constant fear of retaliation. So what was your argument again?Originally Posted by Gilrandir
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
A very well-balanced one I'd say
As for the M17, I can't speak for me fellow Dutchies, but I am pretty sure most just wonder why it was flying over warzone when it was known that both sides have the means to take it down.
Last edited by Fragony; 05-11-2016 at 17:48.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
That’s true, but Jordan isn’t an apartheid state, probably more free than Israel for everybody living there. It’s also worth noting that this is around the time that Israel, with their phalangist allies, targeted Palestinian refugee camps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_...atila_massacre
There’s no need to say anything, he has been constantly demonized even before he was as big of an asshole as he is now, just for taking a stance. You’d be surprised how free pre-war Syria was, you could be openly atheist and even write a book about it. Does Netanyahu not deserve to be treated similarly? Why isn't he demonized?You realize that Assad is also a violent totalitarian regime right? If it wasnt done with his approval he certainly hasnt said anything to make anyone think otherwise.
Less destructive than US and allies in that department as well.Sure, besides their funding of groups who engage in terrorist activities.
At the end of the day the Quds Force and the CIA had the same plan for Iraq's government, they both were responsible for placing a war criminal as its president.Ok, so because Iran wants a stable neighbor out of Iraq, why would they fund insurgents fighting against the government that the US was trying to help?
Of course there’s little proof that they funded them, but they obviously knew about it and went along with it to pull the rug from under a once stable Syrian government.You do realize this is just a report, not a paper outlining policy, theres no credible evidence that the US funded ISIS. If there was, it would be the scandal of the century, and it would be all over the news and whatnot. Which is why this "smoking gun" is just an illusion.
Token or not, they have a multi religious and multiethnic military and political system. Shia Islam is the official state religion, and everything else including Sunni Islam is relegated. Still, equality in Iran is better because they have a more inclusive society. How is it listed as "free" in Freedom House when 1/3 of the population can't vote based on their ethnicity? Should be "partially free," not free.Political representation doesnt automatically mean equality. For example, in Iran, Jews are barred from a lot of government positions. Is that religious freedom? A token seat in parliament is hardly true representation anyways. What religious freedom means is that any religion can practice openly and freely in a country.
Gonna have to agree to disagree, Hezbollah’s involvement is totally up for debate.Ah yes, such great acts of resistance such as the 1994 bombing of a Jewish center in Argentina where 85 people were killed. Totally resistance, not terror. Totally.
These are all admirable traits of Israeli society, but what do those rights mean when they were built on the backs of people whose self-determination was taken away from them? It’s as much a dictatorship as a lot of its neighbors, to people that are under its occupation. Israel is an apartheid state, and to say it’s any better than the likes of Tunisia or even the monarchies is not accurate.Again, nobody is arguing that Israel is anywhere close to being an angel. Hell, I will be the first to condemn how Israel treats Palestinians, steals land for settlements, indiscriminate bombing of Gaza, and the list goes on. My argument is that it is slightly better, in the sense that you can be openly gay without government persecution, women have full rights, there is freedom of the press, etc. Granted, in some of these areas these freedoms are being eroded such as freedom of the press.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
A critique of Israel that is non-anti-semitic cannot exist at present. The label "anti-semitic" is used to flag critiques as outside the universe of discourse; all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic; therefore outside the universe of discourse.
That's just the way things are, independent of the quality/veracity of any such critique.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessary_Illusions
Ja-mata TosaInu
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
Just curious, why do people who call a state an apartheid state when it's basicly nothing more than a admittingly apartheid society. I wouldn't use that word in any case,it's really off imho
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
Sure, though there isnt much in the way of free speech but I suppose in the grand scheme of things thats better than most in the region.
So free that you can protest without being fired upon by the military?There’s no need to say anything, he has been constantly demonized even before he was as big of an asshole as he is now, just for taking a stance. You’d be surprised how free pre-war Syria was, you could be openly atheist and even write a book about it. Does Netanyahu not deserve to be treated similarly? Why isn't he demonized?
And people do demonize Bibi. A lot. I strongly dislike the man and he has done terrible things, but now you are doing what Israel's apologists do- point fingers at others to deflect criticism.
So why did you say that they were funding them earlier.Of course there’s little proof that they funded them, but they obviously knew about it and went along with it to pull the rug from under a once stable Syrian government.
Well first off, the 1/3 statistic is if you include everyone in the West Bank and Gaza. They arent citizens, and dont get to vote in Israeli elections. Yes, the military occupation of the West Bank is bad, and needs to end. So does the stranglehold over Gaza. But at the same time they arent Israeli citizens which is why pretty much all human rights organizations who deal with that area list Israel as being "free" in that regard.Token or not, they have a multi religious and multiethnic military and political system. Shia Islam is the official state religion, and everything else including Sunni Islam is relegated. Still, equality in Iran is better because they have a more inclusive society. How is it listed as "free" in Freedom House when 1/3 of the population can't vote based on their ethnicity? Should be "partially free," not free.
So besides the fact that in this case pretty much all the evidence pointed to Hezbollah involvement, theres a whole bunch of other terror attacks I can list that were linked to Hezbollah. But really it is coming across that you simply deny the fact that Hezbollah is, at its core, a terrorist organization.Gonna have to agree to disagree, Hezbollah’s involvement is totally up for debate.
Yes, and its a real issue that the world and Israel have to deal with (though Bibi isnt a dictator nor do I think that Israel is truly an apartheid state but whatever). But at the same time, don't whitewash the crimes of their neighbors when going after the crimes of Israel.These are all admirable traits of Israeli society, but what do those rights mean when they were built on the backs of people whose self-determination was taken away from them? It’s as much a dictatorship as a lot of its neighbors, to people that are under its occupation. Israel is an apartheid state, and to say it’s any better than the likes of Tunisia or even the monarchies is not accurate.
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Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
If its government actually practices what it claims for itself and give its citizens equal rights. This would actually be in Israel’s favor in the grand scheme of things. Until then, I can see a lot of countries that are better, and they don’t have to be as liberal to do that because they don’t prevent weak people from basic human services every day.
Before things got out of hand, Assad dealt with protesters the same way the Israeli police dealt with Arab protesters. If you read up on the Syrian protests from non-western or less biased Arab media outlets you’ll see that Islamists fired from the crowds and planted snipers, you’ll even see that Assad began the reformation process before his voice was buried by his powerful enemies. If people really had Syria’s best interest in mind they should’ve been more diplomatic and avoid threatening to destroy the big guns rather than force them to make concessions (which they started doing btw). Damascus is pro-Bashar, violent protests came from the countryside and invaded the city, most violent protests in Syria want an Islamic state, not a Syrian one.So free that you can protest without being fired upon by the military?
And people do demonize Bibi. A lot. I strongly dislike the man and he has done terrible things, but now you are doing what Israel's apologists do- point fingers at others to deflect criticism.
They did, this is why Syria is where it’s at now. Who do you think everyone was talking about with the "moderate" rebels? There are over 1,000 brigades, they have no problem being wolves in sheep's clothing if it gets them what they want.So why did you say that they were funding them earlier.
And this is how Israel circumvents what it supposedly stands for. Its human rights violations dealing with people under its control outweighs some of the “not free” countries in Freedom House.Well first off, the 1/3 statistic is if you include everyone in the West Bank and Gaza. They arent citizens, and dont get to vote in Israeli elections. Yes, the military occupation of the West Bank is bad, and needs to end. So does the stranglehold over Gaza. But at the same time they arent Israeli citizens which is why pretty much all human rights organizations who deal with that area list Israel as being "free" in that regard.
You’re passing this off as a fact, but it isn’t. The word has no meaning, not in Islamic politics or any politics. Ask the people of Lebanon if Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.So besides the fact that in this case pretty much all the evidence pointed to Hezbollah involvement, theres a whole bunch of other terror attacks I can list that were linked to Hezbollah. But really it is coming across that you simply deny the fact that Hezbollah is, at its core, a terrorist organization.
The only progressive Israel is a post-Zionist Israel. As of now, it’s dominated by ethnic nationalism at the constant expense of another group, so I feel it deserves to be thrown in the same basket.Yes, and its a real issue that the world and Israel have to deal with (though Bibi isnt a dictator nor do I think that Israel is truly an apartheid state but whatever). But at the same time, don't whitewash the crimes of their neighbors when going after the crimes of Israel.
Last edited by AE Bravo; 05-12-2016 at 03:10.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
So in other words, only sources that conform to your particular world view. Gotcha.
You said there was little proof. Why are you now saying that its definitive.They did, this is why Syria is where it’s at now. Who do you think everyone was talking about with the "moderate" rebels? There are over 1,000 brigades, they have no problem being wolves in sheep's clothing if it gets them what they want.
I agree, I was just saying how its justified under international law.And this is how Israel circumvents what it supposedly stands for. Its human rights violations dealing with people under its control outweighs some of the “not free” countries in Freedom House.
I mean the Arab League considers them as such. As does the EU. And the US. And to most apparently. But to you facts carry no meaning so it wouldnt matter anyways.You’re passing this off as a fact, but it isn’t. The word has no meaning, not in Islamic politics or any politics. Ask the people of Lebanon if Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.
I agree. I think Zionism is only hurting the cause of democracy in Israel. I just happen to think that its towards the top of that basket.The only progressive Israel is a post-Zionist Israel. As of now, it’s dominated by ethnic nationalism like most of its neighbors, so I feel it deserves to be thrown in the same basket.
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Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
That they funded Assad’s opponents is a no-brainer. I said that there was no actual proof of funding Daesh itself, you’re conflating separate points.
That’s also a mixed bag with Israel, because they tend to violate international law where it matters.I agree, I was just saying how its justified under international law.
So because all these countries, including my own, have them in their list it’s a “fact?” What about the countries that object like Tunisia? It's a homegrown movement, and it's not hurting Lebanon. It doesn't mean anything.I mean the Arab League considers them as such. As does the EU. And the US. And to most apparently. But to you facts carry no meaning so it wouldnt matter anyways.
Dunno, but feel free to see it that way when comparing it to a country that doesn’t regularly deny basic human services like electricity, humanitarian aid, food on the table, and a wall that separates Muslims from Jews.I agree. I think Zionism is only hurting the cause of democracy in Israel. I just happen to think that its towards the top of that basket.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
Are you reading what you are writing? Because Im definitely getting mixed signals here.
Well, yes. The international community has for the most part agreed that Hezbollah at the very least has parts of it which engage in terrorist activities. The same international community which has condemned Israel for its crimes. You cant ignore the opinion of the international community when its not convenient for you.So because all these countries, including my own, have them in their list it’s a “fact?” What about the countries that object like Tunisia? It's a homegrown movement, and it's not hurting Lebanon. It doesn't mean anything.
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Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
You find it hard to believe that Islamist and Kurdish opposition have gotten to where they are with foreign backing…
I’m not trying to whitewash anything, but coming back to the point, these things have to be highlighted when you look at Iranian foreign policy. Basically you started by telling me that “if you know anything about Iranian foreign policy you’d know it SUCKS” without telling me how it’s worse than US or Israel. I tried explaining why it’s smarter and safer. If facts didn’t matter to me like you say I wouldn’t waste my time defending something I really dislike.
One is a disputed issue while the other isn’t. You can point to supranational bodies being against something to make a point but you can’t say it’s “fact” when there are countries that object to it using the charters of the very same bodies to prove a point.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
You said that "US funded Daesh before it became Daesh just so it could bring down Assad." I think for some reason you think that the Syrian rebels boil down to Kurds, Islamist, or ISIS. There are moderate groups fighting, there just arent very many of them. Which is why the US program to arm moderate rebels failed, because whoever they did vet and then arm, they were just captured or gave up to extremist groups. So is the US arming extremist groups by accident? Sure I guess if you want to argue that feeble point, that goes back to 2014 when the Iraqi Army just kinda gave up and all that equipment that the US donated fell into ISIS hands. But its is not policy and there is no evidence that it is policy as you say yourself.
Clearly you arent reading what Im writing because I never said that Iranian FP flat out sucks. And I do mention how their FP isnt all that great you just dont listen. There are "good" parts to Iranian FP, I just do not think that its all sunshine and roses like you seem to think. I think you whitewash when you find something which you disagree with. Such as Hezbollah.I’m not trying to whitewash anything, but coming back to the point, these things have to be highlighted when you look at Iranian foreign policy. Basically you started by telling me that “if you know anything about Iranian foreign policy you’d know it SUCKS” without telling me how it’s worse than US or Israel. I tried explaining why it’s smarter and safer. If facts didn’t matter to me like you say I wouldn’t waste my time defending something I really dislike.
On a certain level, both issues are disputed if we are going by your logic. Because there are countries who do object to the idea that Israel is apartheid and whatnot.One is a disputed issue while the other isn’t. You can point to supranational bodies being against something to make a point but you can’t say it’s “fact” when there are countries that object to it using the charters of the very same bodies to prove a point.
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Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
Well, we know they funded FSA and they are pretty much Islamist, since they’re affiliated with a whole lot of other subgroups with fascist charters. US’s allies, like Qatar and Turkey, support AQ groups like Al Nusra. These moderate rebels you’re talking....who the hell knows who they are, man.
Me saying it’s not a terror org isn’t whitewashing.
And no, it’s not sunshine and roses but it’s better, the results they got speak for themselves. It's proven to be safer, no need to sidestep that.
Okay, here’s what you said:On a certain level, both issues are disputed if we are going by your logic. Because there are countries who do object to the idea that Israel is apartheid and whatnot.
Israeli war crimes = acknowledged by everyone
Hezbollah labelling = disputed
And you’re right, not everybody considers it apartheid. On the other hand, apartheid is easier to spot since terrorism doesn’t really mean anything.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
To you maybe.
Maybe safer. They are still pariahs to an extent, and only beginning to shed that label with the recent nuclear deal.And no, it’s not sunshine and roses but it’s better, the results they got speak for themselves. It's proven to be safer, no need to sidestep that.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was pointing out that most of the same people who call out Israel for their crimes are also the ones who say that Hezbollah at the very least has elements which engage in terrorist activities. Some go further and label the whole thing as a terror organization but some which just label certain parts of Hezbollah, acknowledging the fact that there are parts of the group which actually do good for the Lebanese people.Israeli war crimes = acknowledged by everyone
Hezbollah labelling = disputed
Explain?On the other hand, apartheid is easier to spot since terrorism doesn’t really mean anything.
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Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
My argument was forwarded based on no retrospective. If we start to figure out who started and who retaliated then, it will get all messy because each side may claim either way.
I was talking of the PRESENT DAY situation, where we almost always see Arabs attacking and Jews retaliating. Adopting this synchronic standpoint, Jews live in constant fear of attacks and Arabs get the retaliation blows. If Arabs stopped attacking, the reataliation (and much of the fear) would cease as well, no?
Wrong. The separatists were presumed to have portable launchers only not capable of reaching great altitudes used by passenger planes. It was the shooting down of MH 17 that was the first evidence that the presumption was wrong.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
What I know an of course I don't know, but experts on these things say it was an older model because of the exit damage, the type only Ukraine has. But what does it matter, that plane just shouldn't have been there. I am only angry at the people who let it fly there.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
Russian experts?
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
Not as far as I know, experts on weapon-systems at least, older models supposedly leave differerent exit-damage, and it looks like itwas shot from behind. Seems logical to me as it was exit-damage, not frontal. But again, I don't really care who it was these people are dead and that's how far I am willing to care, that plane just shouldn't have been flying over a warzone. Everybody was probably dead the second the plane was hit, I hope at least, but it was completily torn apart so they probably were. There are a lot of questions to be asked though, I don't believe that all Ukrian's radars were into maintanance at the same time, nobody would do that. Common sense would say that the association-deal is more important than the M17 for some, had it been Russia it would have been used into their advantage to creep up on Russia's borders.
Last edited by Fragony; 05-12-2016 at 12:43.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
Their whole schtick is unethical just like any religious group, but at the same time it does nothing to label them “terrorists" since they're not like any other group. Best to not disqualify them altogether and avoid being in utter denial of the workings of ME politics and Lebanese society in particular, because this is a mini state not a bunch of rebels. Lets not forget this started as a resistance movement to begin with to fend off invaders, and labelling them “terrorists” is what drove them to the country that didn’t label them as such - Iran.I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was pointing out that most of the same people who call out Israel for their crimes are also the ones who say that Hezbollah at the very least has elements which engage in terrorist activities. Some go further and label the whole thing as a terror organization but some which just label certain parts of Hezbollah, acknowledging the fact that there are parts of the group which actually do good for the Lebanese people.
Whether it's the same people or not, look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rrorist_groups This isn't something that's unanimous and most certainly isn't a fact. Look up terrorism you'll find different definitions that often extend to what states are doing right now. If you have to be a non-state actor to be labelled a terrorist, and a popular movement to boot operating legally within a state like Lebanon, the word loses its value.
They’re considered pariahs by a few countries that have more dangerous effects on the world than they do, sure.Maybe safer. They are still pariahs to an extent, and only beginning to shed that label with the recent nuclear deal.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
If it looks like apartheid, swims like apartheid, and quacks like apartheid, then it probably is apartheid. Albeit less brazen. I could say that you're whitewashing by not considering it that way.
There's plenty of non anti-semitic criticism of Israel. Just take a look at the fascist PM calling people "wild animals."
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
If it looks like barbarism, swims like barbarism, and quacks like barbarism, then it probably is barbarism. And it's quite brazen about it too. Welcome to the middle east experience, where the Israeli section is less unpleasant than all the other bits. Not pleasant by any stretch of the imagination, but the Muslim bits range from slightly worse, in a few of them, to considerably worse, in most of them. Probably best to skip this theme park altogether.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
AFAIK, it was the cockpit that was hit.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
We will never know, I am not angry about all this, mistakes happen
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
The argument is basicly that Israels treatment of the Palestinians is similar to the way South Africa treated its black people. Under Apartheid, the official position was that black and coloured people weren't citizens of South Africa. Instead, they were citizens of their own governments, which also had small plots of territory. It was called the Homeland system. The "black homelands" were actually a farce, basically puppets of South Africa, and were recognised by no other country.
Most black people had no meaningful job prospects in their "homelands" and had no choice but to seek jobs for South African companies, often even on the territory of "real" South Africa. They were considered foreign workers, and had virtually no protection under the law.
In Israel/Palestine the Palestinians often have a somewhat similar postion, being forced to work for Israeli companies (often settler colonies). I think the comparison is flawed in some respects, but it's still a terrible situation.
PS: Good posts, Hooahguy and Showtime.
Last edited by Kralizec; 05-19-2016 at 18:27.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
The damage to the fuselage is entirely consistent with a Surface-to-Air missile (i.e. a BUK) exploding near the front of the plane, and shredding the cockpit with shrapnel. This isn't my opinion, but the opinion of trained experts who have spent a lot of time on this. And yes, there are "experts" on the Russian side who dispute these findings, who have suggested a million different theories about how Ukraine is responsible. Putin is a fascist, and I don't take any of his apologists seriously.
Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?
You shouldn't. We wil never know it's obviously much bigger than the cassier who didn't give me enough change. I don't think anyone actually wants to know how all this came to be. Things can often be as simple as people doing something stupid, or really smart
Sound and Fury-Signifying?
The deafening silence of the U.S. allowed the first resolution since 1979 condemning Israeli settlement policy:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...090953898.html
Ja-mata TosaInu
Re: Sound and Fury-Signifying?
With the truce now over I have moved it to the Backroom where it belongs.
On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
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Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
Re: Sound and Fury-Signifying?
Maybe someone can correct me on this and provide some really good reasons why it was done now right at the end of his final term in office....
But I can't help but feel this is just complete cowardice, Obama has decided to finally stand up and do the right thing now that there is very little chance it can harm him. Almost anybody can do the right thing in that situation.
In remembrance of our great Admin Tosa Inu, A tireless worker with the patience of a saint. As long as I live I will not forget you. Thank you for everything!
Re: Sound and Fury-Signifying?
Its just his way of flipping off Bebe on the way out. Not meant to be a substantive thing.
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