Brexit Thread

[Lizardo]

Beskar what do you see the need for the EU and what you like to become of the EU?

And also In your eyes if you could reform what would you do?

I personally do not see a need for a political organisation encompassing Europe, each country and it's people have their own agenda, GDP, wealth, working hours (Spain and the Siesta), culture, industry the list goes on. You can not bring about a european wide minimum wage it may well cripple economies and the imports and exports, for instance the Euro currency has decimated spain the cost of living was great in Spain with the peseta now it'ts shot up with the Euro, the Eu can only work with similar countries and industries thats why you've only seen France,Germany,Britain as the powerhouses and the nordic countries and Italy cling on, but with spain portugal and eastern europe its caused a massive brain drain only benefitting the powerhouses as i mentioned. And bullying greece and portugal also spain into submission via the Troika can not justified. ALso making all european nations produce goods of equal or better quality will not benefit the poorer EU nations people.

"We could vote out of the EU, citing NAFTA, when Britain is American's lapdog and will sign the dotted line as soon as we leave anyway, with no discussion or debate. At least the EU challenged the treaty and kept pushing for amendments, which it is why it is taking so long, opposed to being signed in 2012. Thing is, Europe has protected Britain from itself. There is a distinct fear that the supposed "freedom" will led to some very significant disasters in policies."


This not a given this is speculation, Iceland and Switzerland are not America's lapdog, well maybe considering Swiss cooperation with the FIFA scandal, I agree in some respects EU has protected us from awful Trade Deals. but the EU has also prevented us from good ones with emerging economies. EU sanctions of Russia have not been welcomed by the populace. The only mtrade deal in the world that stipulates freedom of movement of people isEUWWRONDGS

Jesting aside, hope is necessary in every day living. It is the enthusiasm which makes us get up each morning, and actually try to make something out of life. In a way, you are a believer of hope Lizardo. You come in threads like these, and you attempt to inform us in your special way, hoping we are convinced and swayed by your arguments, trying to make a difference in the world.

Very true lol.

Side-Note:

This was brought up by someone voting out -

I now approve Beskar as moderator

Tge eurozone is going to tank beginning with france mark my words

[Beskar]

Beskar what do you see the need for the EU and what you like to become of the EU?

The EU has a purpose in its concept and theory. In some areas, it does this successfully, in others, it does not. In some areas, it does it dreadfully. The EU does need serious reform, I have never shy-ed from this fact.

But to answer your questions directly...

The need for greater international cooperation is rather self-explanatory, even if it is purely self-interest. We are living in an increasingly globalised world, and this has accelerated with the dawn of the internet. We have long gone past national boundaries, and on this forum, you see this in action. We have Fragony the loveable dutch guy, you got Husar the germanic comedian, and even the Yorkshire Apache. We are in different countries, yet many of the posters share the same fundamental values, even if they have different views on the solution.

Thing is, there are a great many people who communicate regularly and they come to share in this pan-national identity. In many ways, we are friends and family, the only difference between me and you Lizardo could be I was born on one side of a line and you the other. Yet despite the similarities, we are classified as being supposedly radically different, because of this line some random people decided simply exists.

As you have stated in this thread, you want accountability and democratic representation. I want this as well, and I want you to have it too, and for your comments, it sounds like you want me to have it as well. What is there making us so different when we want to have the same thing? Why does me having democratic representation have to be different to you having democratic representation? Why can we not have both?

Going back to my earlier point, we are living in an increasingly globalised world. We see multinational companies, nations, and NGO's, take advantage of the inequalities between nations in order to exploit them. It could be closing down factories in the US, whilst hiring cheaper labour in India. It could be putting your finances in the Seychelles in order to avoid tax regulation. It could be having your headquarters in Luxembourg, who then sells products to your coffee-shops in Britain "at a loss", in order to avoid paying tax in the UK., arguing the stores there are making a loss, which is "forgiven" by the company. There is also the trillions in transactions going on this second in between the fluctuating currency markets, with the wealth of the world growing increasingly going into the hands of less and less people. There is an economical need and requirement for partnerships to avoid economic exploitation.

As for Trade, the EU streamlined the process significantly. In the past, in order to trade with another EU country, you would have to specifically tailor your product for that market and its regulations. So to trade with everyone within the EU, you would basically have to have 28 separate products and packaging as a minimum. This is a lot of "red tape" and economic wastage. The process was streamlined by having all 28 countries agreeing to the same set of standards, so now products and services can occur across Europe. Now, this is strangely the reverse of the Eurosceptic argument, because you are probably familiar with Brussels apparently telling us how to do these regulations. The thing is, these regulations are done in cooperation, and it produces less red-tape overall, saving companies millions, so when people argue it is the otherway around, you really need to question what they mean. Usually, it is to argue about some trivial thing which would make no noticeable difference.

Obviously, there is the issue of brevity, as I could keep on continuing these arguments, but the bottom line is: We gain more by working together than not doing.

And this is what I want from the EU, where we have a lot of shared culture and values. Better partnership, better cooperation, better tomorrow. This could be further expanded to the Anglosphere.

And also In your eyes if you could reform what would you do?

I briefly covered three of them in my earlier post, and these were mostly broad and general. It would be along those lines.
But the European-Minimum wage is something that is really needed. It would also "solve" the migrant crisis (within Europe) which people are fearing.

I personally do not see a need for a political organisation encompassing Europe, each country and it's people have their own agenda, GDP, wealth, working hours, culture, industry the list goes on.

"Have their own agenda" - Why is this a good thing? If i have an agenda of "lets ban Lizardo", clearly you would be unhappy with this agenda. Now, if we had the agenda of "lets work together to improve the Backroom", that is something we could both work upon, together, and not conflicting.
"GDP" - and why is an individual GDP in nations required? What is special about this?
"Working Hours/Wages" - As you see in my earlier comments, I am really opposed to differences in this. People should be able to work as much as they are willing to, but they cannot be contractually obliged to go above a certain amount of hours. This is very important to prevent wage-slave labour, and because the health impact of working too much, especially against your will, is significant. There are reasons concepts such as minimum wage, and maximum contract hours exist, and these are to protect people. Because Husar is in Germany for example, doesn't make it less relevant than it is here. It is one of those 'human' things that is shared between all of us, and there is no reason for these differences to exist.
"Culture" - In Europe, we have a rather open cultural where we all share and influence eachother. These might be traditional styles of dress, or the food we eat. This doesn't need to change in any radical manner, unless a radical change is required. (ie: obviously things such as non-consensual ritualised cannibalism should be banned/changed)

There isn't any "real" reasons against a shared human identity. There are reasons, but these are usually hollow, nonsensical, or different priorities, but they are objections which challenge on a fundamental level against the concepts in themselves.

[Beskar]

You significantly edited your post whilst I was replying, so I will briefly address some of your additions...

working hours (Spain and the Siesta)

Regional issue which doesn't change anything. 9-5 working is not enforced by law. People and businesses are free to use what ever hours are suitable for them and their consumers. So there are no objections anywhere to Siestas.

I only object to forcing people to work 60 hour a week, for example. It is really inappropriate and detrimental to their health. If you happen to love your work and want to do 60 hours? Then feel free, I have absolutely no objection to you choosing to do that. The key word here is "choice". I want you, and other people, to have it.

You can not bring about a european wide minimum wage it may well cripple economies and the imports and exports

So your own economy being crippled by businesses sacking/unemploying people, to employ people in worse conditions for cheaper costs... is right?
Sorry, but capitalising on others inequality and exploiting them is not a moral argument you can use.
The costs can be off-set by subsidising those poorer countries, if there is indeed an economical union. This is part and parcel of an economical union in concept.

for instance the Euro currency has decimated spain the cost of living was great in Spain with the peseta

My Uncle used to love peseta and the dratma. He said about the good old days where their economies were unable to support the currency, so each year when he went on holiday, he used to be able to buy a lot more goods for his money. being able to afford a lot more luxurious holidays, whilst the common Greek and Spanish were being failed by their states. He dislikes how the Euro has made things a lot more expensive over in these countries, because the workers are getting fairer wages and incomes reflecting European averages.

This not a given, this is speculation.

You're correct, it is. It is a pretty good one at that. Especially with the Tories in government. I really wish to be wrong.