Turkey Thread

[Furunculus]

Strange on 2 levels:

1) Why would 40 years of being a military ally alone qualify a country to join what some also call a "value community" if their values are completely different in many dimensions? Would you always advocate choosing long-term partners based on one-dimensional criteria?

2) For someone who wants his own country out of the EU, that's just a very funny statement and not to be taken very seriously. Unless you want to say that you wouldn't support a Brexit if they had let Turkey in?

A 'value community', eh? I don't think we're too bothered about that, maybe that's why we are having a referendum.

Why? If a club treats a potential member badly, why would i not reconsider the value of club membership?

[Husar]

A 'value community', eh? I don't think we're too bothered about that, maybe that's why we are having a referendum.

Why? If a club treats a potential member badly, why would i not reconsider the value of club membership?

Are you still whining about a wannabe dictator/conservative muslim not getting in?
I seriously don't get that at all.

I would understand your argument if the EU were a military club, then the purely military support could be grounds to let someone in, but the EU is (supposed to be) much more than that. Turkey simply does not behave in any way that would make them a good member at this time because it does not share our democratic values for example. Closing all the press outlets your president does not like is not something an EU member country should do, neither is torturing prisoners or bombing a part of the population the president doesn't like...

They are free not to accept that, but they will have to if they want to become an EU member.

[AE Bravo]

That’s something I’m sure everyone can agree on, but it’s not what this is about. Turkey is being driven away and it naturally reverts to its own values to ensure its own security. Saying Turkey should reform one way or another isn't realistic. There’s not enough trust from both sides to outright commit to sudden reforms, Turkey has to ease in and have incremental shifts.

Diplomatic shortcomings from both sides. You’re not acknowledging that it’s a vicious circle.

[Fragony]

It's Erdogan who is a F5 vicious circle. Turkey is getting isolated yes, I feel sorry for modern Turks

[Gilrandir]

Turkey is a military ally of NATO and NATO is not the EU. Being in a good position to nuke the USSR is not the same as having a good human rights record or promising future in that regard.

Technically. Yet both consist of almost the same countries (Norway is in NATO, but not in the EU, and some others -vice versa). Thus values of both neatly match.

If Russia sells us gas for 40 years, did they earn their right to be in the EU for having been such a reliable business partner for 40 years?

Since Putin has fully embraced power business is subordinated to politics. He is prone to overlook agreements (including the business ones - look at his anti-Turky sanctions) or use business to promote his political agenda (like his gas blackmailing Ukraine - and Europe suffered that winter, btw).

They kept millions of Germans warm in the winter for 40 years after all!

It is atonement for freezing millions (?) of Germans in 1941.

Generally, you should ween yourself off this and diversify. When business intertwines with state policy it doesn't bode well for any business partner.

We also have more common basic standards with Russia than the US: the meter, the liter, the gram...

The British also have a wrongly-placed steering wheel in their cars... Wait, they do have to Brexit and join Japan or something.

Saying Turkey should reform one way or another isn't realistic.

It's Erdogan who is a F5 vicious circle. Turkey is getting isolated yes, I feel sorry for modern Turks

Are we still discussing Turkey or Russia?

[Fragony]

Do Turks live in Russia

[Husar]

That’s something I’m sure everyone can agree on, but it’s not what this is about. Turkey is being driven away and it naturally reverts to its own values to ensure its own security. Saying Turkey should reform one way or another isn't realistic. There’s not enough trust from both sides to outright commit to sudden reforms, Turkey has to ease in and have incremental shifts.

Diplomatic shortcomings from both sides. You’re not acknowledging that it’s a vicious circle.

If demanding someone not to torture prisoners is driving them away, then I'll happily drive them away.
Cry me a river if you don't like that, maybe we can compare it to the rivers the torture victims are crying.

Whining? I'm replying, and it's only my second(?) post in this thread. When did you become so thin skinned?

Your first post seemed very much like a complaint and I may have exaggerated a bit.

I don't argue that Turkey is going in the wrong direction, I merely submit that europe is in part responsible for this change in direction as a result of europe not wanting a non 'european' nation inside the tent.

I repeat, they did not take this attitude to bosnia.

It's not Bosnia's fault that it is more European than Turkey. I also never complained that we are not in NAFTA despite our near spotless record of cooperation with the US since WW2. If it is so easy to annoy Turkey and make it go off into a more islamistic direction then it just proves the point that Turkey doesn't belong into the EU.
Saying that Europe is in part responsible may be true, but the state of Turkey is responsible to a far larger degree given how fast it turned away once it didn't get what it wanted. That's childish and dangerous behavior of the kind we shouldn't let into the EU. You could also turn it around an d say Turkey is blackmailing the EU by saying it will either get in or turn into an islamist dictatorship. Blackmailing countries like that should also not be in the EU. I haven't heard about Bosnians electing an islamist wannabe dictator to spite the EU. But even then, Bosnia is much smaller and easier to influence should it take a wrong turn, influencing Turkey once it joins would seem much harder, especially with such a temper...
It has to show that it fits into the EU before it joins and not afterwards. Most EU politicians seem to think just the same.

Technically. Yet both consist of almost the same countries (Norway is in NATO, but not in the EU, and some others -vice versa). Thus values of both neatly match.

NATO is built on the value of how much does someone hate Russia, NATO countries also have military alliances or dealings with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, etc. Would you say that means these countries also share values with the EU and should be considered as members?
Shouldn't be so hard to see the difference between a nation being a "valuable" military ally and it sharing the same democratic and liberal values. That you mention Norway as an example is actually hilarious, don't tell me you'd compare it to Turkey in terms of democratic values.

The British also have a wrongly-placed steering wheel in their cars... Wait, they do have to Brexit and join Japan or something.

If the Brexits leave, we can finally enforce driving on the right side across the EU, so they can't get in again until they adapt to our values.

[Gilrandir]

NATO is built on the value of how much does someone hate Russia, NATO countries also have military alliances or dealings with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, etc.
Would you say that means these countries also share values with the EU and should be considered as members?
Shouldn't be so hard to see the difference between a nation being a "valuable" military ally and it sharing the same democratic and liberal values. That you mention Norway as an example is actually hilarious, don't tell me you'd compare it to Turkey in terms of democratic values.

We can argue back and forth on the values NATO is built around - I could call it trust in joining forces for defending against anyone (including Russia). But there is no denying the fact that the core NATO members are the core EU members. So whatever their values are (trust in democracy or common hatred of Russia), NATO and EU are a blurred entity (let's call it EUNATO, shall we?) that when focusing on different things - economy or defense - is formalized in two types of institutions.

Norway is in no way compared to Turkey, I just mentioned it as a country that is a member of one and out of the other institution. But it acts together with the EU when the common values are an issue (like sanctions against Russia).

Do Turks live in Russia

Where do they not live?

[Furunculus]

Are you still whining about a wannabe dictator/conservative muslim not getting in?
I seriously don't get that at all.

I would understand your argument if the EU were a military club, then the purely military support could be grounds to let someone in, but the EU is (supposed to be) much more than that. Turkey simply does not behave in any way that would make them a good member at this time because it does not share our democratic values for example. Closing all the press outlets your president does not like is not something an EU member country should do, neither is torturing prisoners or bombing a part of the population the president doesn't like...

They are free not to accept that, but they will have to if they want to become an EU member.

Whining? I'm replying, and it's only my second(?) post in this thread. When did you become so thin skinned?

I don't argue that Turkey is[n't] going in the wrong direction, I merely submit that europe is in part responsible for this change in direction as a result of europe not wanting a non 'european' nation inside the tent.

I repeat, they did not take this attitude to bosnia.

[Fragony]

Why do people speak of europe, it's a continent. The EU is something entirely different. Europe can't want anything it's just land that's higher than the sea (well in our case it isn't but alas). The EU is NOT europe.