Changing Parties

**Pannonian** · 07-18-2016, 00:37

Have you ever considered that the brand of socialism, as seen from an American perspective, that's been implemented here, is what Europeans want? Even in the UK, probably the most right-leaning of the European countries, maintenance of government services is a large part of what voters vote for. Especially among the 30+ age groups. Elections results are basically whoever offers the best government services that the voters think they can afford.

**Greyblades** · 07-18-2016, 00:43

I dont think Socialism means what either of you think it means.

**Hooahguy** · 07-18-2016, 00:50

How did the GOP defeat fascism? FDR was a democrat and I would say it was a combined effort that defeated fascism. Communism too, though that was a whole bunch of reasons and cant be simplified to "Reagan was single handedly responsible for the downfall of the USSR" like so many people like to fantasize.

**Vuk** · 07-18-2016, 00:52

Originally Posted by Hooahguy

How did the GOP defeat fascism? FDR was a democrat and I would say it was a combined effort that defeated fascism. Communism too, though that was a whole bunch of reasons and cant be simplified to "Reagan was single handedly responsible for the downfall of the USSR" like so many people like to fantasize.

I didn't say that Reagan defeated communism single-handedly. The truth is though, that communism was defeated through a Republican led political and cultural campaign that they received no end of opposition and ridicule from Democrats for.
Also, Democrats were in love with Hitler before WWII. It was Republicans who were largely interventionists and opposed Socialism in all forms: fascist or communist.

**Hooahguy** · 07-18-2016, 01:16

Originally Posted by Vuk

I didn't say that Reagan defeated communism single-handedly. The truth is though, that communism was defeated through a Republican led political and cultural campaign that they received no end of opposition and ridicule from Democrats for.

I never said you did. But many conservatives I speak to seem to think this way. I will agree with you that the GOP were more hawkish than the Democrats were.

Also, Democrats were in love with Hitler before WWII. It was Republicans who were largely interventionists and opposed Socialism in all forms: fascist or communist.

Lol wut. Citation needed. Both parties had heavy isolationist movements and pretending otherwise is flat out revisionism. I mean come on, Willkie, the GOP nominee for the 1940 presidential election accused FDR of warmongering. Doesnt sound very interventionist to me. Its also bunk claiming that Democrats were in love with Hitler before WW2. Hell, it was Democrats who led the section of the House Un-American Activities Committee to root out Nazism in the 1930s.

**Papewaio** · 07-18-2016, 07:47

Originally Posted by Vuk

I didn't say that Reagan defeated communism single-handedly. The truth is though, that communism was defeated through a Republican led political and cultural campaign that they received no end of opposition and ridicule from Democrats for.
Also, Democrats were in love with Hitler before WWII. It was Republicans who were largely interventionists and opposed Socialism in all forms: fascist or communist.

The space race largely tipped the communist country over the line in cost not just the ICBMs. The prestige loss with having been first to space but not to the moon. Moscow built a city to compete vs the U.S. in the space race and lost... Now was Kennedy a democrat or a republican?

**Pannonian** · 07-18-2016, 01:04

Originally Posted by Greyblades

I dont think Socialism means what either of you think it means.

To an American, the NHS is way beyond the path of socialism and uncomfortably close to Communism. I consider myself a socialist, along the lines favoured by Orwell.

**Vuk** · 07-18-2016, 00:49

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Have you ever considered that the brand of socialism, as seen from an American perspective, that's been implemented here, is what Europeans want? Even in the UK, probably the most right-leaning of the European countries, maintenance of government services is a large part of what voters vote for. Especially among the 30+ age groups. Elections results are basically whoever offers the best government services that the voters think they can afford.

Of course they want it. They are given a number of choices and asked to vote for the one they want the most. They have been conditioned to think that those are the only valid choices, and they have to pick between them. They are not given any other option.

**Pannonian** · 07-18-2016, 01:09

Originally Posted by Vuk

Of course they want it. They are given a number of choices and asked to vote for the one they want the most. They have been conditioned to think that those are the only valid choices, and they have to pick between them. They are not given any other option.

Of course they were given options. That's why the Tories were known as the nasty party during Blair's time (to quote the then Tory chairman), until they started paying attention to Labour's territory of government services. The Tories veered towards US Republican territory, and the British voters wanted none of it.

**Vuk** · 07-18-2016, 01:11

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Of course they were given options. That's why the Tories were known as the nasty party during Blair's time (to quote the then Tory chairman), until they started paying attention to Labour's territory of government services. The Tories veered towards US Republican territory, and the British voters wanted none of it.

I admit that Britain politically does have more free thought and more of a choice than the rest of Europe. They are almost a bastard mix of European and American with their political ideology. Where in continental Europe is anyone given any choice at all?

**Greyblades** · 07-18-2016, 01:17

I admit that Britain politically does have more free thought and more of a choice than the rest of Europe. They are almost a bastard mix of European and American with their political ideology.

Sadly the whole wolf whistle hate speech thing might lose us that staus, or at least in nottingham. Still, at least it is nowhere near the german level of free speech violations.

At the trial, Peter M. defended his remarks online and said: “One can not even express a critical opinion of refugees without getting labelled as a Nazi. I wanted to create a discussion forum where you can speak your mind about refugees.” Peter M. talked about how, in his role as an administrator of the group, he would weed out any pro-Nazi or radical remarks and delete such posts but since Facebook had deleted the page he couldn’t present the evidence to the court.

The judge in the case was unforgiving in his verdict on the site saying that “the description of the group is a series of generalisations with a clear right-wing background”. After sentencing Peter M. to a nine month suspended prison sentence and his wife to a fine of €1,200 the judge said: “I hope you understand the seriousness of the situation. If you sit in front of me again, you will end up in jail.”

Translation of this german article: http://www.merkur.de/lokales/dachau/...t-6548310.html

**Pannonian** · 07-18-2016, 01:20

Originally Posted by Vuk

I admit that Britain politically does have more free thought and more of a choice than the rest of Europe. They are almost a bastard mix of European and American with their political ideology. Where in continental Europe is anyone given any choice at all?

Goodness knows about the continentals, except that there is more of a leftist verge among the bigger countries. However, here is the quote I mentioned.

"There's a lot we need to do in this party of ours. Our base is too narrow and so, occasionally, are our sympathies. You know what some people call us – the Nasty Party."