Brexit NHS Funding Promise broken

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"If you think the current "Tory" government is ruthless you might ask me how I would deal with those junior doctors refusing to carry out their vocation until they were paid more money to work late." How? Their vocation, as you mentioned, so how? Is it capitalism, market laws? Apply only for railways workers and civil servants?

They need more than £22,000 in their first year?

I do not think so, they want more money and to get it they were willing to sacrifice patient care.

[rory_20_uk]

They need more than £22,000 in their first year?

I do not think so, they want more money and to get it they were willing to sacrifice patient care.

Indeed. In the 1990's, junior doctors who worked the weekend worked Friday, Friday night, Saturday, Saturday night, Sunday, Sunday night and then Monday. They didn't complain and certainly not about patient safety! Cardiac Arrest was a great series that was based on the silly hours and dreadful support. Viewed as realistic by doctors and uncomfortably realistic by patients.

Why no complaints? Well... they did get paid for all these hours and if they were nice to the nurses their sleep wasn't too badly affected (I wouldn't have coped).

Now their hours are moved around to work Saturdays for no extra money and they are concerned they will shake with rage it'll put patients in danger (since complaining that they don't want to work Saturdays hardly wins sympathy).

[Beskar]

If you think the current "Tory" government is ruthless you might ask me how I would deal with those junior doctors refusing to carry out their vocation until they were paid more money to work late.

I am sure it won't be as ruthless as you would like to be treated yourself in an overworked and underpaid position. The idea that Junior Doctors refusing to "work late" as if they are punctual on the dot is simply ludicrous. Every Junior Doctor I have met in 9 years on frontline NHS services pretty much stayed behind and worked for free, putting their patients first, on every single shift. if this was asked of you, you would be flailing your arms, shouting about why you have to remain behind when the clock is done. These are people working over 60 hours a week minimum. The idea you can even utter such a comment shows the complete isolation from the facts, naivety you have on the issue, and contempt you have for these people.

They need more than £22,000 in their first year?

I do not think so, they want more money and to get it they were willing to sacrifice patient care.

For a 64~ hour week, playing a very important role in managing the responsibility of peoples life and treatment in their hands? Basic maths works that out as £6.60 per hour. It is a complete steal, and Hospitals are taking them for muggins. You get better wages at Starbucks without having to do a very demanding and intensive studying for 7 years, racking up an ungodly amount of student debt.

You should be glad that people operate on a moral imperative to do work far below the financial reward, and having to work 50% more hours in the week too.

Personally, I would prefer Junior Doctors to get capped in the working time directive. But unfortunately, they are in so short supply, that the overtime costs will blow up the NHS budget more.

Indeed. In the 1990's, junior doctors who worked the weekend worked Friday, Friday night, Saturday, Saturday night, Sunday, Sunday night and then Monday. They didn't complain and certainly not about patient safety! Cardiac Arrest was a great series that was based on the silly hours and dreadful support. Viewed as realistic by doctors and uncomfortably realistic by patients.

Why no complaints? Well... they did get paid for all these hours and if they were nice to the nurses their sleep wasn't too badly affected (I wouldn't have coped).

Do you really think those working conditions are satisfactory? You pretty much came out and said they are not, and you highlight this is not a modern thing, but something that has been going on for years. The fact you had to rely on good will of the Nurses to allow you to have a couple of hours asleep in a seat in a corner is definitely unacceptable. As a patient, do you really want your old junior doctor self treating you? They just got rudely prodded awake by their bleeper, coming to you half-a-sleep, rather groggy, and expecting them to make decision on your treatment/healthcare?

You also said yourself, world runs on money, not crocodile tears or fluffy bunnies. If market forces were in effect, the wages of Junior Doctors would significantly increase, and they probably even get better hours and treatment. There would also probably be up-skilling of Nurses and other allied Professionals, with more Nurse Prescribers, and other, to reduce the burden on services.

[Montmorency]

You also said yourself, world runs on money, not crocodile tears or fluffy bunnies. If market forces were in effect, the wages of Junior Doctors would significantly increase, and they probably even get better hours and treatment. There would also probably be up-skilling of Nurses and other allied Professionals, with more Nurse Prescribers, and other, to reduce the burden on services.

Unsure - there's something of a tradition, at least in America, to overwork residents and "junior doctors" far more than is needed, on the grounds that it "builds character".

Technically the same protocols are employed in the fledgling of raw recruits in the military.

[Beskar]

Unsure - there's something of a tradition, at least in America, to overwork residents and "junior doctors" far more than is needed, on the grounds that it "builds character".

Technically the same protocols are employed in the fledgling of raw recruits in the military.

I realised that after my post, they seemed rather overworked in the TV series, Scrubs. I was thinking of the economics of short-on-supply and large demand for the services they offer. Though the fact Junior Doctors need to do the work to become Doctors in their own right, probably means they can be held over a barrel for ransom.

No it was not fine and probably unsafe - that's my point! The doctors had no issue with unsafe as long as the money was good. Now the hours are less pleasant they bemoan safety.

I will have to concede that I haven't looked back at the previous campaigning done on behalf of Junior Doctors, I would have thought it was an issue that was constantly challenged with it both being unsafe and bad money, and it simply hit a boiling point with further cuts. I have to be honest, the job they have looks rough and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. From what I have seen, they deserve to have less hours, as it would be more humane on them, and would lead to increased patient safety. (I have no issue if they choose to work more, that is then a choice.)

[Brenus]

"The doctors had no issue with unsafe as long as the money was good. Now the hours are less pleasant they bemoan safety." So, you do agree that now it is both unsafe and crap money.
So, they are right to go on strike, as one of these two reasons is enough by itself?

[rory_20_uk]

If they want to bitch about pay and conditions, then do so. I'm fine with that. Although given it is a final salary pension, relatively early retirement along with the possibility of vast sums of money for private work I'm not sure how bad the pay is.

But they are hiding behind safety whilst making things less safe for those they supposedly care for.

[Brenus]

"But they are hiding behind safety whilst making things less safe for those they supposedly care for." They are not hiding. They make it clear that money is crap for this job, as far as I read Metro newspaper (free newspaper).
Well, in life, you can decide to do tiring and dangerous jobs if the money is good. But, it money is not, you can decide it is not worth. And it is in your right to strike if the conditions you did agree change.
And, of course, after Brexit, no one can really think UK will hire some European trained doctors/nurse, because, well, UK voted against EU immigration. So, either UK will hired none European doctors (not good for the ones who vote Brexit on the grounds of controlling immigration) or you will have to give doctors want they want. Actual capitalist "laws" market resolving problems in action.
Wasn't the reason of Brexit, taking back control on UK decisions?
And all this even before Brexit!!!
The other bit is: "they supposedly care for.". Well, some of them could say it was a choice to make good money, nothing to do with "taking care of", like the one working in the City. Good job, a bit risky but well paid etc, so if not well paid, strike. You try to impose a moral judgement when you are the one who wrote "world runs on money, not crocodile tears or fluffy bunnies".
In one hand you claimed money is every thing, but an the other hand you suddenly shift to a moral position, as if some jobs should work on ethical grounds when others should work on "making money as much as you can without any sort of back-draw".
You have to choose. Well, sort of...

[rory_20_uk]

I am sure it won't be as ruthless as you would like to be treated yourself in an overworked and underpaid position. The idea that Junior Doctors refusing to "work late" as if they are punctual on the dot is simply ludicrous. Every Junior Doctor I have met in 9 years on frontline NHS services pretty much stayed behind and worked for free, putting their patients first, on every single shift. if this was asked of you, you would be flailing your arms, shouting about why you have to remain behind when the clock is done. These are people working over 60 hours a week minimum. The idea you can even utter such a comment shows the complete isolation from the facts, naivety you have on the issue, and contempt you have for these people.



For a 64~ hour week, playing a very important role in managing the responsibility of peoples life and treatment in their hands? Basic maths works that out as £6.60 per hour. It is a complete steal, and Hospitals are taking them for muggins. You get better wages at Starbucks without having to do a very demanding and intensive studying for 7 years, racking up an ungodly amount of student debt.

You should be glad that people operate on a moral imperative to do work far below the financial reward, and having to work 50% more hours in the week too.

Personally, I would prefer Junior Doctors to get capped in the working time directive. But unfortunately, they are in so short supply, that the overtime costs will blow up the NHS budget more.



Do you really think those working conditions are satisfactory? You pretty much came out and said they are not, and you highlight this is not a modern thing, but something that has been going on for years. The fact you had to rely on good will of the Nurses to allow you to have a couple of hours asleep in a seat in a corner is definitely unacceptable. As a patient, do you really want your old junior doctor self treating you? They just got rudely prodded awake by their bleeper, coming to you half-a-sleep, rather groggy, and expecting them to make decision on your treatment/healthcare?

You also said yourself, world runs on money, not crocodile tears or fluffy bunnies. If market forces were in effect, the wages of Junior Doctors would significantly increase, and they probably even get better hours and treatment. There would also probably be up-skilling of Nurses and other allied Professionals, with more Nurse Prescribers, and other, to reduce the burden on services.

No it was not fine and probably unsafe - that's my point! The doctors had no issue with unsafe as long as the money was good. Now the hours are less pleasant they bemoan safety.