most powerful faction

[ReluctantSamurai]

so slow; so hard to turn; so depleted after a charge

The Heavy Cats are shock troops. Their best use is in breaking enemy lines and formations, particularly infantry. The three-line formation certainly makes a traditional cavalry wheel-route turn more difficult, but one shouldn't be depending on them for lightning-quick maneuvers. I've played all the factions that get heavy cats and never noticed a speed problem. They get where I want them to go, and charge when they're needed. If "depleted after a charge" means tired...that's a factor of how far they had to travel before getting into action. If you had to traverse most of the battlefield beforehand, then yeah, you're only going to get one good charge out of them before you see true fatigue.

Armenia has the best flexibility in that you send the CA's out ahead to harass the enemy, and walk the heavy cats into position. The CA's can take care of themselves against most other cavalry, so one doesn't have to babysit them constantly like you do with the Scythian-style horse archer. I've found that Arab Cavalry make a good escort for the CA's when lancers are present. They're faster, and better in melee.

Heavy Cats, when used for what they are intended for, can turn the tide of any battle pretty quickly. Just ask Crassus at Carrhae

Speaking of Carrhae, it's in the list of historical battles you can fight...and one of the most difficult to win, IMHO. After the AI trashed me numerous times before I could notch a single win, I modeled my Cataphract army tactics along the lines of what the AI used on me. One of the few times the RTW battle AI humbled me

I built them; just wasn't impressed.

If you enjoy the Seleucids, put them behind the Heavy Chariots (works with Ellies too). When the chariots (or ellies) complete their charge (ie. pick a point beyond the units you are attacking so they don't get bogged down), immediately send in the cats and enjoy the ensuing mayhem. Chariots/ellies don't generate a lot of kills on their own, but they are the best at disrupting enemy unit cohesion and formation, which has a demoralizing effect. If your timing is good and the cats hit before a unit has reorganized....instarout

I am soon going to put them against screeching women in a custom battle. I will DVR the moment of impact.

Man you're cruel....................a screen capture would be awesome though

[Mitch the Mace]

I agree. Cats cannot be handled as standard cav. They are a specialized shock cav, designed to deliver a knockout blow. I also like using them to protect my flanks if I am fighting on the defensive. Unless you let a phalanx get a hold of them, you can smash any infantry trying to sneak around the flank. With their high defense, I don't worry too much about letting them get in prolonged melee combat. Obviously I don't leave them out to dry, but they are great for delaying the enemy until I can reinforce that flank.

With more standard heavy cav, (PC, CC, SBC) I will try to engage the flanking elements before they start to flank, but with the Cats, I don't want to run them around too much because they do tire a little easier than normal cav.

Properly used, the Cats can turn a up-for-grabs battle into a mass rout.

[LordK9]

I agree. Cats cannot be handled as standard cav. They are a specialized shock cav, designed to deliver a knockout blow. I also like using them to protect my flanks if I am fighting on the defensive. Unless you let a phalanx get a hold of them, you can smash any infantry trying to sneak around the flank. With their high defense, I don't worry too much about letting them get in prolonged melee combat. Obviously I don't leave them out to dry, but they are great for delaying the enemy until I can reinforce that flank.

With more standard heavy cav, (PC, CC, SBC) I will try to engage the flanking elements before they start to flank, but with the Cats, I don't want to run them around too much because they do tire a little easier than normal cav.

Properly used, the Cats can turn a up-for-grabs battle into a mass rout.

I'm likely using them wrong then. What I found happened was they'd get bogged down after the charge and cut to pieces in short order. They are too slow to turn and run - just barely faster then infantry and stuck there vs cavalry. A lot of the enemy would die but not worth the high expense of the cats. I do tend to use hit and run tactics with cavalry and rarely charge frontally. I've even had quite the success with that using round shields.

Also, as far as Egyptian infantry, I might be getting mixed up I may have been thinking of the Paeoni (sp?) infantry someone mentioned that Carthage had. I was thinking Egypt had them too. Really, I rarely played Egypt - just didn't like their time warp armies. And beating them when they were AI wasn't all that hard depending on who I was - bypass the Levant armies and go straight for the Nile cities.

[Mitch the Mace]

Frontal charges should be avoided with Cats as well as with any cav unit. Cats can get away with it against lighter infantry, but still try to hit them when they are not braced for the charge. You are right, unless a Cat unit is upgraded quite a bit, prolonged melee combat can result in heavy casualties, especially against heavy inf. If you leave them much longer after the charge bonus is negated, then they become basically a mounted infantry unit, without advantage of numbers or formation.

If you can get any kind of success out of Round Shield cav, you should be happy.

Poeni infantry is unique to Carthage. Egyptian inf. units are Nubian Spearmen, Nile Spearmen, Desert Axemen, Pharaoh's Guard. I don't think I'm missing any, please let me know if I am. The two spearmen units are basically worthless, with PG being one of Egypt's unrealistic units, as Reluctant Samurai already pointed out. I think I started a campaign with Egypt, but quit after two turns.

[Mitch the Mace]

I know they definitely do not fall under most powerful, but as anyone ever gotten very powerful with Numidia? I have done several campaigns, but never got too far. I know they are a challenging faction to play as; early on I basically relied on skirmishers to take care of Egypt's phalanx and chariots, and my Generals to take care of their cav. Then I had a family member die hitting a retreating phalanx in the back.

After that I kind of lost interest, due to the fact that you have to micromanage every facet of the campaign. With a poor economic base to start from, and very light units, they are probably the hardest campaign I have ever played.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I know they definitely do not fall under most powerful, but as anyone ever gotten very powerful with Numidia?

I've played them several times. Can't say it was enjoyable, but I stuck with it once just to see how far I could get.

One thing I learned fast...abandon Siwa on the very first turn, and burn it to the ground. Use the garrison to take Lepcis Magna. That accomplishes two things: avoids immediate conflict with Egypt, and nets you a port city that you can easily connect with other ports later. Stay on the fringe of the Carthage-Scipii conflict until you can recruit Long Shields. I used horse archer tactics with Numidian Cavalry...hit & run. Effective against both Carthage & Rome early on because Carthage has no archers and Rome has only a smattering. Get within javelin range and pepper the hell out of their infantry. Unlike horse archers, these guys come dirt cheap so losing a unit or two doesn't bite the bank account as badly.

You get no decent infantry until Numidian Legionnaires (which become your staple), but Desert Infantry is serviceable...barely. I made extensive use of Spanish Mercs once I crossed into Iberia. When I had enough denarii coming in, I recruited Merc Ellies to pound on the Romans once I headed for Sicily and then The Boot. Numidia gets Onagers so you can lay siege to, and assault Roman stone walls.

I had screenies at one time, but after two new computer rigs I can't seem to find them

IMHO, Numidia is much easier, economic-wise, to play than Parthia. You get a decent trade temple (Milqart), a good law & order temple (Baal), and a farming temple (Tanit) which comes in handy for those pi$$-ant Numidian holes of Dimmidi and Nepte

My vote goes to Parthia as the hardest faction to play, mostly for their precarious geographical position, and absolutely dreadful economics.

[Vincent Butler]

You get no decent infantry until Numidian Legionnaires (which become your staple), but Desert Infantry is serviceable...barely.

If you choose to stick it out with Egypt, DI are not bad. They do well against chariots, especially in a town where the chariots can't maneuver as well. The legionaries are only equivalent to Principes. That said, Principes (and therefore Numidian/Armenian legionaries) are decent, and will hold their own against most other infantry units in the game. Until you encounter Cohort. But if you mod out the unrealistic cohort, the unit Marius came up with (that we know as ELC) was based on the Principe, so you could manage there too. As a history point for those who don't know, the LC are only unrealistic for the time period, they came later, and PC was only a palace guard.

[LordK9]

My vote goes to Parthia as the hardest faction to play, mostly for their precarious geographical position, and absolutely dreadful economics.

I am not disagreeing and I never bothered with Nubia but, doesn't the description at the kingdom selection phase at the very beginning describe Parthia as being rich due to sitting on the trade routes with China or something like that? Never could get their economy going so I never understood what that was about.

[Vincent Butler]

Man you're cruel....................a screen capture would be awesome though

Now how do I post it? I have the video. Just to make it worse, I gave my Cats max upgrades and them none. I was a little too zoomed in, I think, but not too much, so you see pretty much everything that happens. They did not rout instantly, it actually took them a little longer to rout than I expected, probably due to the Cat's lower melee attack (SW are not armoured, so I did not use the maces).

[Vincent Butler]

Now how do I post it? I have the video.

Never mind, I think I have it.



I know this is overkill, and it is a waste of Cataphracts on Screeching Women. Well, not really. But Cataphracts are the hammer that either softens up a formation (hit with Cats, then with Companions if Seleucia). That should do it. Again, have Cataphracts use alternate attack if fighting armoured units, and it is better if they are used in conjunction with other units.

I think the developers intentionally made Rome the most powerful. The Praetorian Cav, unrealistic as they are, give Rome a decisive advantage. The best infantry and the best cav, though cases can be made for Seleucia, Macedon, and Armenia, though this is only with human control, otherwise the most powerful non-Roman faction seems to be Egypt. For the Barbarians, it is Britain, with again the stupid over-rated chariots.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Splaaaat!

What I would do differently is have the Cats charge to a point behind the...well, whatever you wish to call them That way most of the unit clears the enemy formation and is now behind them. Wheel around and finish the job, or move to another target.

though cases can be made for Seleucia, Macedon, and Armenia

Very strong cases, I might add

the most powerful non-Roman faction seems to be Egypt

If you run a campaign with all factions controlled by the AI, Rome will always triumph in their sphere of influence, and Egypt will always come out on top in the Middle East. IMHO, this speaks of roster imbalance, at the least. It's the main reason I removed a bunch of units from both factions because it became borderline monotonous to see the same outcome game after game (playing a faction not in the Middle East and watching Egypt run amok, or playing a ME faction and watch the Romans exterminate everyone around them).

Without the silly Pharaoh's Guard/Bowmen, Desert Cavalry and Egyptian Bowmen unit size reduced to standard, I've actually seen the Seleucids hold their own against them, and other factions like Pontus or the Greeks give them tough battles and actually win a few instead of getting trounced every time.

Same with the Romans. No Praetorian anything, no Urbans or Cohort II's (and when I play a Roman faction, same roster applies). Gaul can actually make some noise, for once. Had one game where they booted the Julii out of Segesta, and sacked Ariminum. If it wasn't for the intervention of the SPQR doomstack, they might have reduced the Julii to a lonely outpost at Caralis. It was refreshing to see. Oh, and I removed the SPQR's ability to build ships. I mean really? There's already three Roman factions building navies (and one could make an argument that three factions is too many), adding a fourth means Carthaginian and Greek City navies get crushed, and those two factions need powerful navies to thrive. Without the unrealistic SPQR navy, I've occasionally seen the Greek Cities do what they're supposed to do...fight for control of the seas near Apollonia and Thermon, and make it no cakewalk for the Brutii to land armies anywhere they please in Greece.