Ukraine Thread

[Hooahguy]

Well- what's the point of sanctions?

We know they don't deliver regime change, so they're basically there to express our annoyance - which they have done. At some point persecuting Russia starts to benefit Putin's policy. Any constant enforced by one party in diplomacy ends up being turned to the advantage of the target in some way eventually because it's a constant.

At this point we should arguably be lifting all non arms-related sanctions. That will greatly reduce Putin's ability to blame Russia's systemic problems on the West whilst also forcing Russia to pay for all it's own military R&D and driving up the per-capita cost of their new equipment by reducing their ability to sell it oversees and thereby economise their production lines.

Sanctions are essentially economic violence. We arent going to go to war with Russia over Ukraine so this is the next best thing. True, the impact of sanctions on Russia haven't been much when compared to the impact of falling oil prices (most economists think that the Russian economy has been impacted three times more by falling oil prices than by sanctions). But they havent made it easy either. The arms embargo has certainly hurt, as the sale of the French Mistral carriers was cancelled. Limiting sanctions to just arms sales would definitely make it easier for their economy to recover. Im skeptical that sanctions have caused the anti-west sentiment, they have been blaming the west on their troubles for years before all this happened. And mind you, sanctions by the EU didnt really begin until the MH17 disaster, a disaster which the evidence solidly points to Russian implication.

[Gilrandir]

Well- what's the point of sanctions?

We know they don't deliver regime change, so they're basically there to express our annoyance - which they have done. At some point persecuting Russia starts to benefit Putin's policy. Any constant enforced by one party in diplomacy ends up being turned to the advantage of the target in some way eventually because it's a constant.

At this point we should arguably be lifting all non arms-related sanctions. That will greatly reduce Putin's ability to blame Russia's systemic problems on the West whilst also forcing Russia to pay for all it's own military R&D and driving up the per-capita cost of their new equipment by reducing their ability to sell it oversees and thereby economise their production lines.

You may be right speaking of the sanctions which are being enforced now - they may be annoying, but aren't that effective. But, in my opinion, you draw a wrong conclusion. Why weren't/aren't sanctions effective? Perhaps because the West is reluctant to introduce the sanctions that WILL hurt? So, if you want sanctions to be effective choose the ones properly - like the one with quick money or whatever it is called. Otherwise it is complaining that the disease persists making the patient take halfdoses of medicines.

As for sanctions as a cause of anti-west hysteria in Russia - this:

Im skeptical that sanctions have caused the anti-west sentiment, they have been blaming the west on their troubles for years before all this happened.

The arms embargo has certainly hurt, as the sale of the French Mistral carriers was cancelled.

Oh, come on! Who needs those cockleboats when they have this:

[Hooahguy]

You may be right speaking of the sanctions which are being enforced now - they may be annoying, but aren't that effective. But, in my opinion, you draw a wrong conclusion. Why weren't/aren't sanctions effective? Perhaps because the West is reluctant to introduce the sanctions that WILL hurt? So, if you want sanctions to be effective choose the ones properly - like the one with quick money or whatever it is called. Otherwise it is complaining that the disease persists making the patient take halfdoses of medicines.

I am in agreement. The most effective sanctions would be the ones that halt the flow of oil and gas into Europe. Russia relies heavily on that for revenue but so does the EU rely heavily on Russia for energy. It would certainly cause a crisis in both Russia and the EU (unless the EU found alternative energy sources) so it will probably never happen. Another form of sanction that could happen is banning Russia from the SWIFT interbank payment system which would cripple the Russia economy further as they wouldnt be able to transfer money to banks in other countries, causing a default. Foreign direct investment has already been fleeing the country since Crimea and Ukraine happened (over $200 billion as I recall), but I suspect that also has to do with the FSB seizing private property so investors are reluctant to put in the money if they fear the FSB just taking it away.

[Gilrandir]

Bellingcat published a map of Russian artillery strikes of 2014 aimed at Ukraine:
https://bellingcatukraine.carto.com/...21875%5D%7D%7D

[Gilrandir]

Found a picture of a Soviet poster dating back to WWII (the guy on the picture is not me). It shows Goebbels whose propaganda is silenced after some military setbacks. But somehow the face on the poster resembles not only Goebbels...

[Gilrandir]

I realize it doesn't belong here, but the topic was broached in this thread, so it is logical to follow the developments here. Montenegro prosecutors still believe in the coup and its being related to Serbia and Russia.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...n-day-attacks/

[Gilrandir]

A court's decision on Russia's involvement in Ukraine:
http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/d...cp170006en.pdf

[Pannonian]

Found a picture of a Soviet poster dating back to WWII (the guy on the picture is not me). It shows Goebbels whose propaganda is silenced after some military setbacks. But somehow the face on the poster resembles not only Goebbels...

Tut tut. Attack the post, not the poster.

[Gilrandir]

Yes. I am familiar with the jargon, but focusing in internal affairs does not make Trump a flower of democracy, now does it?

It makes him a flower of flawed democracy:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph...daily-chart-20

Tut tut. Attack the post, not the poster.

Did I attack anyone or anything in my post?