Representative Democracy [Concluded]

[Schema]

Does make me a little uneasy that Schema and Monty are championing my cause, though I guess I can't really complain.

Heh, made me paranoid that you voted Cuth right after me, too.

I think we should probably look outside each other. We're both town or everyone can mock me end of game.

[Zack]

Why would that make you paranoid? I've been going after Cuth longer than you have.

[Renata]

Championing? Entertaining, nothing more. My priority is making sure that whoever replaces dp is town. I'm a little paranoid that he got killed as a confirmed townie and that a wolf is going to try to take that power. I hope Cass doesn't redistrict.

She has to, the districts are unbalanced.

[Schema]

Because he is 10x more dangerous than GH has demonstrated in this game.

Am I being ridiculous? I read Zack theory posts and all I kept thinking was BS.

I think GH gets taken out because it's the least revealing maneuver? Idk. People can read into it whatever they want, because there's far less in-thread from him to base reads on.

[Fenn]

Hey everyone. I somewhat followed D2 but will need to reread at some point.

Dp101 was almost 100% confirmed town given his D1 voting (and good posts besides), whereas Zack could conceivably be scum. That's reason enough to do away with Dp. Similar reason could apply for lynching GH (+ he was a less controversial candidate than Zack), but that's getting into WIFOM territory and I'm not convinced that Cass is a wolf.

FWIW Cuthillius seems more scummy than El Barto to me despite EB's D2 weird talk about voting.

[Zack]

What are your reads, Renata?

[Fenn]

whoops, X-post with #2274.

[Zack]

Hey everyone. I somewhat followed D2 but will need to reread at some point.

Dp101 was almost 100% confirmed town given his D1 voting (and good posts besides), whereas Zack could conceivably be scum. That's reason enough to do away with Dp. Similar reason could apply for lynching GH (+ he was a less controversial candidate than Zack), but that's getting into WIFOM territory and I'm not convinced that Cass is a wolf.

FWIW Cuthillius seems more scummy than El Barto to me despite EB's D2 weird talk about voting.

Hi. You seem reasonable.

Who would you have voted yesterday? Were you following closely enough to give an answer?

[Montmorency]

Hi. You seem reasonable.

Be careful. Fenn/Csargo is still viable candidate for lolscum.

[Renata]

What are your reads, Renata?

Check out my latest reads post from Thursday. I don't think anything changed while I was AFK. Not that I could determine from just reading through thread anyway.

I would get it myself but am on cell til after christmas.

[Schema]

Why would that make you paranoid? I've been going after Cuth longer than you have.

Length of time is one thing, immediacy of the action afterward is another? With Monty coming in and voting right after that I get paranoid about wagons and wagon speed.

Don't read too much into it. More just dialoguing about votes.

[Fenn]

Hi. You seem reasonable.

Who would you have voted yesterday? Were you following closely enough to give an answer?

With who was on the block, of Cuth/El Barto, probably Cuth due to his D1. GH was null to me from what I read, and you were towny and making good points.

[Zack]

I'd like to see any of GH, Cuth and one of the inactives up for lynch. I'd like to say about Csargo that if he comes back to to put in a valid lynch vote, lynch him, because otherwise I think he might be facing wrath of Pizza right now. Not positive though. Otherwise, any of the others is fine by me.

I haven't done the work I need to do on Schema or Zack, to say anything useful about them.

I may not post again today, I'm up against some stressful shit until after the deadline, hopefully thatll be the end of it but I can't be sure. I'll see how it goes.

I guess you mean this post?

[Zack]

With who was on the block, of Cuth/El Barto, probably Cuth due to his D1. GH was null to me from what I read, and you were towny and making good points.

Well you already said that more or less.

I meant more if you could have chosen anyone.

[Fenn]

Oh, well probably Cuth still, plus his flip would shed light on the people who had pushed/not pushed/defended him, which a lynch of a lurker (Riedquat for example) would not have done.

[Cass_]

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!

I'm just finishing a 15hr Christmas Eve Saturday Night Shift (spew) so bear with me. I'll be here for a bit and then I need to sleep, and then drive home to see my hubby and kids and do Christmas stuff from there. One kid and hubby are apparently out for the count with gastro and I'm feeling nauseated so :/ things are likely to be fun.

Quick takes on new day stuff I've read to here.

The 24hrs to redraw districts is going to be a b**** for me given the above. Strategic advice - with reasoning explained I can evaluate pros and cons would be appreciated.

I was going to suggest we look at DP / Cuth today for lynch given their votes but lolme. Cuth drops lower in my PoE given the flip. The rest of my reasoning on him stands for now, whether it is right or wrong.

I voted GH over El Barto essentially because lolme, specifically because I found GH more wolfy and less likely to be an easy mislynch just because. There were considerable differences between GH's last Town game and how he played here, and that felt more concrete alignment-wise than Barto playing generally scummy. On top of that a general vibe that people were either really eager or hedgey on Barto in the last countdown at EoD, and the fact that GH and Zack were among the most fine with it/had him top scum, but were not voting there kind of made it feel like a setup/distancing for if/when he flipped Town.

Zack's wigging me out pushing me for not voting Barto twice as if it's a big thing, when yesterday voted Cuth on earlier stuff, but then put Barto as lowest read and was 'happy' to lynch him when I asked for consensus and still stuck with the earlier vote on Cuth.

Here, he's again directed attention/alluded to Barto Scum but redirected the vote to Cuth.

IF Barto IS scum and Cuth is Town, I'd say this looks bad for Zack.

[Montmorency]

IF Barto IS scum and Cuth is Town, I'd say this looks bad for Zack.

Then lynch Cuth.

Strategic advice

Wilco.

[Zack]

Am i only allowed to have one scum read?

I told you to lynch barto and voiced disagreement with a gh lynch. My vote doesn't even matter anyways so lol.

[Zack]

You ignored my problems.

Why do you keep voting barto if you didn't want to lynch him?

Why have you spit on the idea of democracy?

I feel like i can never engage with you, you're always talking around me cass. Asking me questions, commenting on things I've done, but ignoring my own answers and questions.

[Renata]

I guess you mean this post?

I had a full list somewhere I think, updated from a previous one.

[Cass_]

I want to talk about how we can coordinate a lynch to make it more cohesive/representative for Town.

I'm sorry that I was wrong, but that's the way it went.


If I take my guilt feels out of it and look at it root cause-analysis-wise I think there were a couple of things in particular that contributed to a bad result and have the potential to keep doing so in the future.

1. Lolmyreads. I'm glad I caught Chox with my method n1, but my personal gut and methods aren't infallible or perfect as an approach to reading someone, and as much as I'd like to be awesome and read everyone correctly, statistically it's not going to happen every time.

2. Allowing ties with the mandate that the lynch be decided by one player. Regardless of who's Chancellor, making the lynch decision theirs subjects it to the problems in point 1 and makes potentially makes it more difficult to draw conclusions about everyone else.

3. Allowing the deciding player to deviate from strategy discussed. See points above.


Allowing ties at lynch and the mandated practice of the Chancellor deciding limits the strategic/collective power of the Town to one person. At a gut level, I don’t think this is a good thing for Town, or the game as a whole.

Regardless of who's Chancellor, making the lynch decision theirs subjects it to the problems in point 1 and makes potentially makes it more difficult to draw conclusions about everyone else.

All mafia have to do is push votes towards townies and hope one person gets it wrong.

So I think this needs to change. Have been thinking about/putting more thoughts together about this overnight but #lolstrategyishard


What do people think about making things more truly representative/following majority vote?

[Renata]

If you made more districts than three a tie becomes much less likely.

Only problem with voting according to district will is timing. Well plus potentially reduces influence of rep who is hopefully towns.

[Cass_]

Why do you keep voting el barto then lynching someone else

I've spent all night wondering if it makes sense for the wolf team to be exactly choxorn/El Barto/Cuth/Cass

I think it kinda does

See previous post - I've voted for El Barto because he seems scummy on general play, I've lynched Chox and GH him because there were considerable differences in their play here and their play in games where they were Town and that made it more likely to me that they were actual scum than just El Barto hinging on randomness and self-reference, which I've seen him do in both alignments.

TLDR He's still scummy on general principle and I'd like to see him lynched.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Tallies for both days, spoilered for size.

For Day 1, I don't think she was around for end of day. Maybe she believed Visor's doublevoter claim, reasoned it meant her vote wouldn't really matter so threw it on a teammate for bussing cred, then came back later to find a three-way tie between her 3 teammates and lynched the least important one.

The on Day 2, after spending Day 1 talking nonstop about how the strategy should be for everyone to vote as normal then the district representatives vote according to their constituents, she completely discards this without discussing it further. Her district overwhelmingly voted for Cuth and she was the only person to vote for Barto. She explicitly asked people if they'd prefer Winston to vote for me or Cuth, multiple people responded with all of them voicing a preference for Cuth, then she instructed him to keep his vote on me anyways. Then despite her voting for Barto again, she decides to break the tie by voting for GH, which came out of nowhere, and he flipped town.

She also was throwing some shade at me, commenting how I seemed unconcerned with a lot of people voting me Chancellor when it would have made her paranoid. First, that is nonsensical. Second, a LOT more people voted her than ever voted me, and not only did she not get paranoid about it (as she claimed she would have), she didn't even seem to acknowledge it whatsoever. When she was the only person around in the thread and I was talking with her, she got really uncomfortable and plain weird, demanding why I was "pressuring" her. It was really odd, and I just kind of brushed it aside at the time as a weird thing not to worry too much about, but combined with everything else I need to talk about it.

I don't really think it's that crazy, because I just don't understand her voting and play on D2 as town. It makes no sense to me.

Is there a vote mutiny option?

This is a lot of theory-crafting based on things that don't take into account I could/have still completed each action as Town. Some of it I can see how you might think that way as Town, the rest I'm not so sure.

FTR though

1. I voted Chox because I found inconsistencies in his play and things about his actual game here that pointed to him being decidedly wolfy.

2. I did try to encourage talking about mechanics and how we make this setup work best for Town, and it went nowhere cohesive / got shut down. The suggestion that we hunt D1, strategise later was not a bad one. Last night's result suggests we need to strategise more and address flaws in our approach. I haven't given up on the idea of properly representative votes, but if we're going that way it needs to be concrete.

3. I didn't instruct Winston one way or the other - I stated that personally I'd prefer you in the pool to Cuth, but regardless, Barto was a more decidedly scummy read for me than the two he was suggesting.

4. Breaking the tie by voting GH came out of the same process as the one I used to correctly lynch Chox. I then had to decide whether to stick with the strategy we'd half-discussed despite paranoia that I couldn't trust the players who'd been discussing it, or to go with my stronger read. I went with my read and it was wrong, probably on many levels. One of the reasons why we need to get more concrete about what is expected of everyone, and why this system/approach needs to change.

5. I did get paranoid about being voted towards Chancellor, and I'm pretty sure that's even ITT, so you've either misrepped it or missed it in your read. Either it's nonsensical or it isn't though. Don't tell me it's nonsensical to consider you might react that way and then tell me that I'm wolfy for reacting the opposite way.

6. The question about why you were pressuring was because it felt like shade. Still does.

[Cass_]

Oh, and FTR I already asked Pizza if we could change Chancellor if I decided to step down.

He said no.

My only option would be to not submit a vote in the event of a tie and be modkilled / a matyr for the cause.

I considered it as an option for n3, but ultimately it leaves us with a Townie down.

Better option is to figure out a way for Town to get cohesive and for us to get more collectively gud.

[Cass_]

If you made more districts than three a tie becomes much less likely.

Only problem with voting according to district will is timing. Well plus potentially reduces influence of rep who is hopefully towns.

Yes to all of this.

I'm considering more districts as a general thing. Input into how many and grouping ideas appreciated.

Timing I believe we can manage if we get motivated.

I still lean towards putting scummy people in one to limit their influence on the lynch as a possibility but lolreads and stuff makes this hard to achieve.

I think we need to focus influence of the rep thing. Problem is you're effectively multiplying the problems of the Chancellor if you leave it all up to them, and you're at risk if they happen to be scum/scum are grouped enough together to put one of themselves into power.

[Jabbz]

So the nights results have put Zack more into my town column, as much as I hate to admit it. Dp was heavily on Zack's case, and only backed off because he didn't want to cause more drama in the thread. There was an implication however, I felt, that he still thought Zack was scummy and would be revisiting it. Leaving Zack alive in this instance presents the image of protecting Zack from a valid scumhunt, and it sounds like something I would do if I were scum. Zack has also been a lightning rod for a lot of people's attacks over the last two days. These all make valid reasons for leaving him alive, regardless of his efficacy as a wolf hunter.

@Cass_

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!

I'm just finishing a 15hr Christmas Eve Saturday Night Shift (spew) so bear with me.

You work for the Society for the Protection of Elvish Welfare!?!? That's awesome. Say hi to Hermione for me.

The 24hrs to redraw districts is going to be a b**** for me given the above. Strategic advice - with reasoning explained I can evaluate pros and cons would be appreciated.

The one thing I was thinking, that Renata touched on in another post, is that 5 districts likely leads to less power for you personally. With 5 people, you are less likely to end up with a tie, meaning you will be less likely to be called on to cast the final ballot. I think most of us find you to be trustworthy. You could I suppose be playing a deep game by throwing one of your d1 wolves to the gallows, perhaps someone who just wasn't into playing wolf, but that still seems pretty unlikely to me. The point of that observation is that I think most of us trust that while your decision may not necessarily be right, it's coming from a town perspective. You however don't seem thrilled with the prospect of casting that vote, so perhaps you would be more inclined to give up that power.

Splitting up the districts also gives scum a greater chance of being in a voting position. At the same time however, as others have noted, we get to track more people's decisions. I think I would weigh in on the idea of 5 districts personally. First, it will be a one night thing, because after today we won't have the numbers to pull it off again, so it doesn't put wolves into long term positions of power. Second, it will mitigate some of the issues some players are having with feeling ineffective in the game, and a boost in morale probably isn't a bad thing for the health of the game. Finally it does give us more people to read and judge, and gives fewer people a safe place to hide with an ultimately meaningless vote.

Glad it's not me having to make the decision though. Have fun with that.

@Fenn

With who was on the block, of Cuth/El Barto, probably Cuth due to his D1. GH was null to me from what I read, and you were towny and making good points.

Hey Fenn, glad you could join us man.

[Jabbz]

xpost with the previous two posts.

[Montmorency]

DISTRICT ONE

1. Schema
2. Cuthillius
3. Renata
4. Choxorn Lynch1
   
5. Dp101 NK2
6. Jabbz
7. dicetosser1

DISTRICT TWO

1. Winston Hughes
2. BSmith
3. Visor
4. Csargo/Fenn
5. Riedquat
6. El Barto
7. Monstrbro

DISTRICT THREE

1. Montmorency
2. Al Sipsclar
3. Sooh NK1
4. Cass_
5. GeneralHankerchief Lynch2
6. Zack
7. atheotes

There are two basic options: 3 districts of 6-6-5 or 5 districts of 3-3-3-4-4.

Chancellor: Cass
Power-players/Senatores: Zack, Visor, Renata
Equites: atheotes (TOWN CRED), Winston Hughes, Monstrbro
Plebes: Montmorency, Cuthilius, El Barto, dicetosser, Schema, Jabbz
Inactives/Lurkers/Silentiarii: Riedquat, BSmith, Al Sipsclar, Fenn/Csargo

There are 17 of us, 16 minus Chancellor, 10 in the lower classes, 6 in the higher.


3-District Draft

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here power is still concentrated, so you may or may not recuse yourself from representation and leave administration to the high nobility.
Either way, spread the nobility so that the commoners are kept in check and so that it is more difficult for the powerful themselves to unite and form factions against your rule.

If you do retain a home district (expected Reps at top):

1. Cass
2. Monstrbro
3. Winston Hughes
4. Cuthilius
5. Jabbz
6. Riedquat

1. Zack/Visor
2. atheotes
3. Montmorency
4. dicetosser
5. BSmith
6. Fenn/Csargo

1. Renata
2. Zack/Visor
3. El Barto
4. Schema
5. Al Sipsclar

If you don't retain a home district (expected Reps at top):

1. Zack
2. Monstrbro/Visor
3. Atheotes
4. Schema
5. Cuthilius
6. Al Sipsclar

1. Visor/Monstrbro
2. Cass
3. Montmorency
4. dicetosser
5. BSmith

1. Renata
2. WinstonHughes
3. Jabbz
4. El Barto
5. Riedquat
6. Csargo/Fenn

5-District Draft

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

With 5 districts, you absolutely must take personal leadership of a home district, and elevate atheotes to power as a new man for his towniness. Two of Visor, Zack, Monstrbro, and Winston should be placed so as to be elected Reps. Pick who to exclude from power, and place one of those individuals in your own district

1. Cass
2. Visor/Zack/Winston/Monstrbro
3. Montmorency
4. Riedquat

1. Visor/Zack
2. dicetosser
3. Schema

1. Winston/Monstrbro
2. Winston/Monstrbro
3. Fenn/Csargo

1. Atheotes
2. Jabbz
3. Al Sipsclar

1. Renata
2. Cuthilius
3. El Barto
4. BSmith

[Montmorency]

I think I would weigh in on the idea of 5 districts personally. First, it will be a one night thing, because after today we won't have the numbers to pull it off again, so it doesn't put wolves into long term positions of power.

Today (17) and tomorrow (15), unless we lose a lynch or an extra nightkill pops up.

[Cass_]

Wolf Cass takes you out every time, Zack. Dp101 was voting you and died. Cuthillius wasn't even an option for her last night. El Barto, who was, d
Is mysteriously not top priority. Why?

Bold is assuming I'm Wolf and Zack is Town? Why assume Zack is Town? Why no option for WW?

The other good points are good/fair/unfinished - El Barto/Why what?

I think Renata's assessment of the situation is on point, but can see Zack questioning my moves as either alignment.

Dp voted GH.

Did you read my post or the thread? Winston asked if she wanted him to switch to Cuth, she asked the general population if they wanted that, they said yes, she told Winston to stay on me anyways.

Don't know what the last part is supposed to be.

See point about me not directing Winston either way, that the point was Barto being a higher scum read to me than you or Cuth.

DP still had pressure on Zack, and was likely to be elected Rep again wherever he ended up if he lived. He changed his vote from Zack to GH. Knowing he's Town (I questioned it after GH's flip) and with GH gone, Zack may have been his next target /shrug.

Why was he shot any of the other consensus Towns despite the fact he could have been seriously suspicious for putting GH into the PoE after the flip?