Terminology poll: Mafia or wolf?

[Dp101]

Or the host.

But thematically the host rarely exists as an entity to actually examine bodies, in most writeups I see it is the townspeople who discover the identities of the dead.

[GeneralHankerchief]

But thematically the host rarely exists as an entity to actually examine bodies, in most writeups I see it is the townspeople who discover the identities of the dead.

But who narrates the townspeople doing so, and thus cosmologically ensures that the event happens?

CHECKMATE

[Zack]

I reject your argument on the grounds that I disagree with it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I reject your argument on the grounds that I disagree with it.

I was reading this thread, and I attempted to quote this post out loud to Sooh.

But, what I said was:

"I rejecument..."

And then I stopped, because I had already ed up the sentence so badly it was beyond saving.

R.I.P. sentence.

[Dp101]

But who narrates the townspeople doing so, and thus cosmologically ensures that the event happens?

CHECKMATE

They narrate that we discover the bodies and the identity, that does not mean they made us discover the identities. Well, this is assuming we have free will of course.

[Zack]

Therefore, by supporting "mafia" over "wolf" you consequently must also believe in a deterministic universe.

[Dp101]

Therefore, by supporting "mafia" over "wolf" you consequently must also believe in a deterministic universe.

Why? The definition of mafia vs wolf is up to the host, which is not deterministic at all. Just because something is correct doesn't mean it has to happen.

[Zack]

Well, this is assuming we have free will of course.

...

[Montmorency]

But thematically the host rarely exists as an entity to actually examine bodies, in most writeups I see it is the townspeople who discover the identities of the dead.

There are always more townspeople than players. It's just an abstraction. Call it "the gods", "the authorities", some unspecified person conducting an investigation on the dead, intrinsic components of the dead body...

[Dp101]

There are always more townspeople than players. It's just an abstraction. Call it "the gods", "the authorities", some unspecified person conducting an investigation on the dead, intrinsic components of the dead body...

But which intrinsic components? Do mafia have a badge of evil tattooed on their hearts or something?

[Zack]

But which intrinsic components? Do mafia have a badge of evil tattooed on their hearts or something?

Would that make cops peeping toms?

[GeneralHankerchief]

It's already been established that the game host is god of that particular universe - after all, this is where the term Wrath of God originates.

Since this is the case, and since the host is always aware of the rules, roles, and actions taking place, let us further assume that the host is not merely a god but also an omnipotent one.

Taking the above for granted, since the host is also the narrator, it can be logically reasoned that the host, in the course of his/her narrations, is also the one who is driving the action in the first place - i.e. the host is actually doing the reveals upon death and not the remaining townies. Because of all this, it can be reasonably concluded that the omnipotent host/god is making the lynched person's alignment known to the general public and thus Dp101's "what about transformation upon death" argument, while in the right place, is invalid due to divine intervention.

[Dp101]

It's already been established that the game host is god of that particular universe - after all, this is where the term Wrath of God originates.

Since this is the case, and since the host is always aware of the rules, roles, and actions taking place, let us further assume that the host is not merely a god but also an omnipotent one.

Taking the above for granted, since the host is also the narrator, it can be logically reasoned that the host, in the course of his/her narrations, is also the one who is driving the action in the first place - i.e. the host is actually doing the reveals upon death and not the remaining townies. Because of all this, it can be reasonably concluded that the omnipotent host/god is making the lynched person's alignment known to the general public and thus Dp101's "what about transformation upon death" argument, while in the right place, is invalid due to divine intervention.

So are you arguing that every action by an individual is just them acting as part of the will of the god of the game world?

[Montmorency]

So are you arguing that every action by an individual is just them acting as part of the will of the god of the game world?

Every game of Mafia is internally self-sufficient by the host's direction. This is why logical absurdities appear in terms of "realism", because the game is only realistic unto itself.

[Zack]

It's already been established that the game host is god of that particular universe - after all, this is where the term Wrath of God originates.

Since this is the case, and since the host is always aware of the rules, roles, and actions taking place, let us further assume that the host is not merely a god but also an omnipotent one.

Taking the above for granted, since the host is also the narrator, it can be logically reasoned that the host, in the course of his/her narrations, is also the one who is driving the action in the first place - i.e. the host is actually doing the reveals upon death and not the remaining townies. Because of all this, it can be reasonably concluded that the omnipotent host/god is making the lynched person's alignment known to the general public and thus Dp101's "what about transformation upon death" argument, while in the right place, is invalid due to divine intervention.

But that just raises the problem of evil.

[Montmorency]

They narrate that we discover the bodies and the identity, that does not mean they made us discover the identities. Well, this is assuming we have free will of course.

They can tell us that identities have been discovered and presented to us by some source outside the immediate player group.

But which intrinsic components? Do mafia have a badge of evil tattooed on their hearts or something?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the host and the game.

For example, in Pizza's game, the scum - eventually just Zack - represented "terrorists" attacking the United States. The town, or the players at large, represented the electorate and the leadership of the United States. You take for granted that this flavor relates to some mechanical justification, since of course Zack running around killing one or two people per "night" - which may in fact be a year, or other long period - is not going to bring down the government of the United States.

The Game is the part of the whole that reenacts the whole as the whole. It therefore recognizes nothing outside itself, as we recognize nothing outside what we recognize.

[Dp101]

Welp you got me there. I'm too invested in this to change my mind though, so my vote stays where it is.

[Zack]

They can tell us that identities have been discovered and presented to us by some source outside the immediate player group.



Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the host and the game.

For example, in Pizza's game, the scum - eventually just Zack - represented "terrorists" attacking the United States. The town, or the players at large, represented the electorate and the leadership of the United States. You take for granted that this flavor relates to some mechanical justification, since of course Zack running around killing one or two people per "night" - which may in fact be a year, or other long period - is not going to bring down the government of the United States.

The Game is the part of the whole that reenacts the whole as the whole. It therefore recognizes nothing outside itself, as we recognize nothing outside what we recognize.

But if you're bending over backwards to justify the flavor in this way, you're unknowingly revealing the flaw in the original argument that "mafia > wolf because flavor".

[Montmorency]

But if you're bending over backwards to justify the flavor in this way, you're unknowingly revealing the flaw in the original argument that "mafia > wolf because flavor".

No, this is in response to DP's comment that wolves can be seen as wolves at a glance, but one can't see why a mafioso is a mafioso just by looking at him. In terms of the reveal.

This is the same issue that enters into why we can't just recognize each other, for example in games where there are literal monsters and writeups can be like, "Suddenly the townspeople noticed Player X had fangs and red glowing eyes and they lynched him."

[Zack]

No, this is in response to DP's comment that wolves can be seen as wolves at a glance, but one can't see why a mafioso is a mafioso just by looking at him. In terms of the reveal.

This is the same issue that enters into why we can't just recognize each other, for example in games where there are literal monsters and writeups can be like, "Suddenly the townspeople noticed Player X had fangs and red glowing eyes and they lynched him."

But what you're arguing here is that the flavor doesn't really matter, because it's just a game and all made up anyways. But the original argument is that "mafia" is better because it makes more sense with flavor and realism.

Which is it?