Trump Thread

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I have repeated this several times, but I’ll do it again: The difference is what to expect from a state run by a nationalist military dictatorship versus a state with democratically elected leader (and one who might only spend 4 years or less on the post).

So that logic you present would only apply if the United States were a xenophobic and isolationist regime. It is not.


And no, you make it very clear that a travel ban is not something very serious to you. Perhaps it is difficult to comprehend legislation being drawn up to discriminate you specifically, not for your opinion or political views, but for where you are born.

Not legislation, but an executive order. Such orders spell out the process by which the executive branch will execute the law promulgated by Congress. Were Congress to oppose the measures taken in the Executive Order, they could modify the law by which the President is empowered placing whatever limitations they preferred on the books. This change would require a 2/3 majority so as to be veto-proof, but that is the system under which we operate.

The executive order was NOT aimed at you personally, of course, though any refugee or would-be immigrant from Iran -- obviously including you -- will be barred from entry for the next 114 days or so. The sloppy execution of the order (e.g. holding up the entry of current legal residents) makes it clear that too many are aware of the media version without reading the blinking thing, including Customs officers apparently.

The only indefinite ban (at least so far) is on those from Syria.

The order will, from the look of things, probably be extended to other nations of concern after about 60 days -- based in part on their willingness/ability or lack of willingness/ability to provide the additional information envisaged in the new and more robust vetting procedures referenced in the order.

The whole point is to resume immigration and the refugee program after this hiatus, with the hiatus having been used to establish and place assets to conduct the more rigorous screening. The more rigorous screening is not, apparently, going to be applied to all and sundry (though I expect that it will be, bowing to political pressure for fairness, once the new procedures are in place). Customs and immigration is about to become a good deal more costly to the taxpayer.

I actually think that a better vetting process is a good idea, and that it should be applied to all and sundry both for fairness and because much of the potential threat but by no means all of a potential threat is lodged in these nations. As this was such a centerpiece of his campaign for so long, however, I am a bit frustrated that a more complete process is going to take 4 months to get in place. Should have had people working on the specifics from 11/15 on

[Montmorency]

I actually think that a better vetting process is a good idea, and that it should be applied to all and sundry both for fairness and because much of the potential threat but by no means all of a potential threat is lodged in these nations. As this was such a centerpiece of his campaign for so long, however, I am a bit frustrated that a more complete process is going to take 4 months to get in place. Should have had people working on the specifics from 11/15 on

What in particular could be improved in the process, arduous as it is? Is anything concrete meant to be achieved by such a reform, or by an intention of reform?

This isn't a question of process after all, but one of source. Some classes are prima facie unacceptable, others are not, and all before any paperwork or interviews come into play. The contest now is whether "Muslims" may be considered among the unacceptable classes.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What in particular could be improved in the process, arduous as it is? Is anything concrete meant to be achieved by such a reform, or by an intention of reform?

This isn't a question of process after all, but one of source. Some classes are prima facie unacceptable, others are not, and all before any paperwork or interviews come into play. The contest now is whether "Muslims" may be considered among the unacceptable classes.

I think the intent will be to screen out those who have demonstrated a threat potential (supporting or conducting violence for the cause etc.). Probably some kind of flag for people with violent criminal history as well, whether terrorist or no.

Using the religion in and of itself would be both inappropriate and unconstitutional.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...

The use of the religion as a whole would obviously contradict the "free exercise" portion. It would also be offensive to more than 3 million U.S. citizens who are Muslim.

[Dâriûsh]

Note on your sig, Dariush. I think you mean Fatehi and not the actress in your second quotation -- but some might miss that without the surname.

What, that old thing?

Or perchance it could be the actress and hence a quote from the darkest (and so far yet unreleased) episode of How I Met Your Mother. Think about it.

I’ll change it if you can give me a better one.

Not legislation, but an executive order. Such orders spell out the process by which the executive branch will execute the law promulgated by Congress. Were Congress to oppose the measures taken in the Executive Order, they could modify the law by which the President is empowered placing whatever limitations they preferred on the books. This change would require a 2/3 majority so as to be veto-proof, but that is the system under which we operate.

The executive order was NOT aimed at you personally, of course, though any refugee or would-be immigrant from Iran -- obviously including you -- will be barred from entry for the next 114 days or so. The sloppy execution of the order (e.g. holding up the entry of current legal residents) makes it clear that too many are aware of the media version without reading the blinking thing, including Customs officers apparently.

The only indefinite ban (at least so far) is on those from Syria.

The order will, from the look of things, probably be extended to other nations of concern after about 60 days -- based in part on their willingness/ability or lack of willingness/ability to provide the additional information envisaged in the new and more robust vetting procedures referenced in the order.

The whole point is to resume immigration and the refugee program after this hiatus, with the hiatus having been used to establish and place assets to conduct the more rigorous screening. The more rigorous screening is not, apparently, going to be applied to all and sundry (though I expect that it will be, bowing to political pressure for fairness, once the new procedures are in place). Customs and immigration is about to become a good deal more costly to the taxpayer.

I actually think that a better vetting process is a good idea, and that it should be applied to all and sundry both for fairness and because much of the potential threat but by no means all of a potential threat is lodged in these nations. As this was such a centerpiece of his campaign for so long, however, I am a bit frustrated that a more complete process is going to take 4 months to get in place. Should have had people working on the specifics from 11/15 on

Executive order there, potential legislation here. Rightwing politicians around Europe is watching the United States (and that man) on this. The fewer protests such measures evoke, the more likely the European extremists will be inclined to copy, or escalate upon, said measures.


Regarding a better vetting process - as a “Muslim” guy, I have experienced my fair share of vetting up until now.

This includes them taking my laptop and phone and demanding access codes, implying that they have the right to demand access to my Facebook profile and email, and generally just been forced to wait for hours. I dread to think they can take it any further.

Seeing your non-Muslim-looking friends and co-workers go through checks without incidents, often smiling sheepishly afterwards and apologizing (as if they have to), is both demeaning and humiliating.

Stuff like this is difficult not to take personal. So I am all for fairness.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Regarding a better vetting process - as a “Muslim” guy, I have experienced my fair share of vetting up until now.

This includes them taking my laptop and phone and demanding access codes, implying that they have the right to demand access to my Facebook profile and email, and generally just been forced to wait for hours. I dread to think they can take it any further.

Seeing your non-Muslim-looking friends and co-workers go through checks without incidents, often smiling sheepishly afterwards and apologizing (as if they have to), is both demeaning and humiliating.

Stuff like this is difficult not to take personal. So I am all for fairness.

I suspect I would feel much the same were I in that position. It is a fair point to make.

I also suspect that whatever enhanced vetting procedures become the norm will eventually extend to all refugees, immigrants, and those applying for extended residency.