The United Kingdom; The European Union; NATO: which is the primary sense of identity?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Isn't it funny that the same people who say that the EU has too much control are also blaming the EU for believing the Greek numbers.
I am not saying that the way the EU or Germany acted was good, but the root of the problems lies within Greece. And it is a simple facts that if your borrow money you give away freedom.

If I sell you a knockoff watch on a street corner, that's my fault - if you go to your wife and tell her it's the real thing, that's your fault.

Now go take a look a Greece's employment figures for the last decade - ask yourself why it hasn't recovered, then own up to the fact its because Greece is in a currency union with Germany.

It is.
Last thing Germany wants is to become leader in Europe. However, it has the biggest population, the strongest economy and lays right in the middle. Germany really hesitated to lead in the financial crisis and was driven by the others. Now it is blamed for everything that is not good.
One of the reason the EU was founded and still has to be is that the EU is a system of balance between the big countries and the smaller ones. Without the EU that would not work and Germany would dominate - something nobody wishes.

Germany rules over Europe, by accident or design you have effectively recreated Charlemagne's Holy Roman Empire. However, Germany continues to claim it does not want over-lordship and as a result refuses to take responsibility for the EU's structural problems, refuses to lead in fixing them.

Since the financial crash the structures of the EU have impeded recovery in Southern Europe, leading to the emergence of radical far-Right and far-Left groups in countries such as Greece and Portugal whilst the open borders and slew of terrorist attacks have undermined the EU's claim to promote peace.

[Husar]

If I sell you a knockoff watch on a street corner, that's my fault - if you go to your wife and tell her it's the real thing, that's your fault.

Now go take a look a Greece's employment figures for the last decade - ask yourself why it hasn't recovered, then own up to the fact its because Greece is in a currency union with Germany.

And why is that so?
Were they forced into that union or did they perchance even fix their numbers to get in when they really shouldn't have gotten in?

Germany rules over Europe, by accident or design you have effectively recreated Charlemagne's Holy Roman Empire. However, Germany continues to claim it does not want over-lordship and as a result refuses to take responsibility for the EU's structural problems, refuses to lead in fixing them.

Since the financial crash the structures of the EU have impeded recovery in Southern Europe, leading to the emergence of radical far-Right and far-Left groups in countries such as Greece and Portugal whilst the open borders and slew of terrorist attacks have undermined the EU's claim to promote peace.

Funny how Germany is supposed to lead more, and that's coming from the country that left because it felt like it didn't have enough control... If Germany openly steps up to lead the EU, it will be the only country left in the EU after a few years. Might as well blame the other countries for refusing to go anywhere together. Your demand of quasi German dictatorship is really just funny when "EU dictatorship" is why you left. You can't have both a fairer/more representative EU and one led singlehandedly by Germany's iron fist.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And why is that so?
Were they forced into that union or did they perchance even fix their numbers to get in when they really shouldn't have gotten in?

The ECC knew the numbers were fixed - they were as fictitious as the EU's accounts.

Funny how Germany is supposed to lead more, and that's coming from the country that left because it felt like it didn't have enough control... If Germany openly steps up to lead the EU, it will be the only country left in the EU after a few years. Might as well blame the other countries for refusing to go anywhere together. Your demand of quasi German dictatorship is really just funny when "EU dictatorship" is why you left. You can't have both a fairer/more representative EU and one led singlehandedly by Germany's iron fist.

Currently Germany controls the EU by having a bigger economy and more money than anyone else. The only way the EU progresses is if Germany leads instead of rules.

Or you can let the EU fall apart, as you said - I voted to leave, I don't have a personal stake.

[Husar]

The ECC knew the numbers were fixed - they were as fictitious as the EU's accounts.

And? Doesn't change the fact that Greece wanted in really bad. Are they toddlers who aren't responsible for their choices?

Currently Germany controls the EU by having a bigger economy and more money than anyone else. The only way the EU progresses is if Germany leads instead of rules.

Or you can let the EU fall apart, as you said - I voted to leave, I don't have a personal stake.

Explain how having a bigger economy and more money translates into more control in this case. Are we buying corrupt MEPs? Do we get more seats in the council?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And? Doesn't change the fact that Greece wanted in really bad. Are they toddlers who aren't responsible for their choices?

No, it also doesn't change the fact that the rest of the Eurozone were desperate to expand the currency, for ideological reasons, and were willing to overlook the dodgy accounting in the belief there would never be a Bust; because the EU ensures prosperity.

Explain how having a bigger economy and more money translates into more control in this case. Are we buying corrupt MEPs? Do we get more seats in the council?

Primarily because Germany is paying for everything. In the current structure of the EU the European Parliament functions as the "revising chamber". Actual decisions are, in the first instance, made by the Council of Ministers and the Commission.

When Mario Draghi was was appointed head of the ECC more than one commentator said he would "need to discover some German ancestry." By dint of being so much bigger you drag everyone along with you, you don't even realise it because you assume the German perspective is normative and everything else is abhorrent.

[Kagemusha]

No, it also doesn't change the fact that the rest of the Eurozone were desperate to expand the currency, for ideological reasons, and were willing to overlook the dodgy accounting in the belief there would never be a Bust; because the EU ensures prosperity.



Primarily because Germany is paying for everything. In the current structure of the EU the European Parliament functions as the "revising chamber". Actual decisions are, in the first instance, made by the Council of Ministers and the Commission.

When Mario Draghi was was appointed head of the ECC more than one commentator said he would "need to discover some German ancestry." By dint of being so much bigger you drag everyone along with you, you don't even realise it because you assume the German perspective is normative and everything else is abhorrent.

so is Germany too strong for EU, or whats the problem? Britain has a special relationship with US which is mammoth compared to Britain and with Brexit you will become more and more dependant on US compared to your ex EU partner Germany, which is economically only moderately stronger then you.

[Husar]

No, it also doesn't change the fact that the rest of the Eurozone were desperate to expand the currency, for ideological reasons, and were willing to overlook the dodgy accounting in the belief there would never be a Bust; because the EU ensures prosperity.

Yes, but that only means all sides are to blame.

Primarily because Germany is paying for everything. In the current structure of the EU the European Parliament functions as the "revising chamber". Actual decisions are, in the first instance, made by the Council of Ministers and the Commission.

When Mario Draghi was was appointed head of the ECC more than one commentator said he would "need to discover some German ancestry."

People are projecting a lot due to their own weakness. Juncker is from Luxembourg and is quite powerful within the EU. Then we had plenty of other powerful figures in powerful positions within the EU. I could see how the German position is easiest to get a consensus on because Germany is so successful, but then that wouldn't be a bad thing and not require German leadership either. It would merely be the EU trying to adopt the most successful model for everyone. The Council of Ministers and the Commission are made up by members from all member states and Germany does not have any more votes than the others.
Again, from a British POV, your country basically complained about paying too much and not having enough say. Now you blame Germany for paying "everything" and having too much say. It doesn't really compute because if that were true, your country would have had a lot of influence in the EU due to its enormous contributions.

By dint of being so much bigger you drag everyone along with you, you don't even realise it because you assume the German perspective is normative and everything else is abhorrent.

Germany has around 82 million inhabitants, France and the UK have around 60 million each. Poland is almost at 40 million. Germany has 80 million of a total of 500 million and Luxembourg gets as amany council members (and votes) as Germany does. It's a very arbitrary point that you're making where we basically command around several countries the accumulated populations of which outnumber ours and which also have a lot more council seats. If other countries agree with us then maybe our perceived normative position is normative due to the widespread support it gets within the EU?
What kind of structure would you propose for the EU to make it fairer? IIRC a lot of British people wanted representation according to payments made, that would be exactly the kind of representation where Germany, France, UK and Netherlands would have dominated the entire union.

[rory_20_uk]

Here in the "UK" we have the insanity of the Scottish, Northern Irish, (less so the Welsh) wanting an equal say with England - and no not have this is "undemocratic". And this is on top of England the only nation in the UK not to have its own parliament.

Germany is a massive economic powerhouse. Germany desperately tries to not upset everyone by being as powerful as its population and economy would suggest.

Germany pays a fortune to the EU and in some respects unsurprisingly gets envious glances from everyone else - especially France who is still adjusting to loosing out to Prussia.

I personally view the EU like the Millennium Dome - a structure that came about due to political demands with reality as an afterthought and unsurprisingly by trying to please everyone, pleased no one. Rather than starting small with a fixed structure that others could join they have added vast numbers of countries and are left in a mess where even the capital isn't in one place.

In terms of what I identify with, NATO is purely a military construct, the EU is a political gestalt and the UK is undergoing apotosis. England? Perhaps - but is one allowed to identify with that any more?