UK General Election 2017

[Husar]

Just a reminder. When I was saying that Britain should mind its own business and withdraw from all engagements with the middle east, you were the one arguing for more engagement. I would gladly accede to this terrorist's wishes and have absolutely nothing to do with Muslim countries, except where necessary to trade for resources.

The trade for resources is the part that basically shatters your argument entirely. What if they decide to trade the resources with Russia or China instead because they sell them arms in return? You just say okay, stop using your car?

I see no point in fighting an ideological war with bombs and bullets, or with ideology. I see no point in fighting the war at all, or engaging with these barbarians in any way beyond what is necessary. I think their ideology is barbaric, but they're free to have it in their own country. They use the argument of self determination (despite your trying to weasel out of that principle when I pressed you on it), but their claim is reciprocal. They want us out of their country, the reciprocation is that they should get out of our country. Since we can't get them out due to international laws, we should keep them out instead, which is within our rights as a state.

Why should they get out of your country if they want self determination? Does the UK not allow people from the US in because they used violence to get self determination? Does a country have to basically be a UK colony for the citizens to be allowed into the country?

[Pannonian]

The trade for resources is the part that basically shatters your argument entirely. What if they decide to trade the resources with Russia or China instead because they sell them arms in return? You just say okay, stop using your car?

That's their right to do so. I respect their right to do so. Unlike you, I respect the principle of self determination.

Why should they get out of your country if they want self determination? Does the UK not allow people from the US in because they used violence to get self determination? Does a country have to basically be a UK colony for the citizens to be allowed into the country?

What right does anyone from outside the UK have to enter the UK? It's a privilege, and we can allow it to whoever we like, and withhold it from whoever we like. At least what I suggest doesn't involve violence, unlike what these arseholes are inflicting on us. If they want us to respect their self determination, they should reciprocally respect our self determination. Or is it a one way thing, in that people are allowed to do whatever they want to us, but we're expected to soak up whatever they hand us? I suspect it's the latter for you, since we're Britain and thus automatically the punchbag for the high horse moralists of this world.

[Montmorency]

That's their right to do so. I respect their right to do so. Unlike you, I respect the principle of self determination.




What right does anyone from outside the UK have to enter the UK? It's a privilege, and we can allow it to whoever we like, and withhold it from whoever we like. At least what I suggest doesn't involve violence, unlike what these arseholes are inflicting on us. If they want us to respect their self determination, they should reciprocally respect our self determination. Or is it a one way thing, in that people are allowed to do whatever they want to us, but we're expected to soak up whatever they hand us? I suspect it's the latter for you, since we're Britain and thus automatically the punchbag for the high horse moralists of this world.

Aside from conflating individuals with countries, you fail to realize that there is no such thing as mutual self-determination, because self-determination necessitates conflict - therefore we have compromise in society.

Should the UK and the United States have respected Nazi German self-determination in the continent as long as they kept the peace with Anglophone countries?

[Gilrandir]

Should the UK and the United States have respected Nazi German self-determination in the continent as long as they kept the peace with Anglophone countries?

They have tried hard to respect it for the most part of the 1930s.

[Pannonian]

Aside from conflating individuals with countries, you fail to realize that there is no such thing as mutual self-determination, because self-determination necessitates conflict - therefore we have compromise in society.

Should the UK and the United States have respected Nazi German self-determination in the continent as long as they kept the peace with Anglophone countries?

In case you missed it, Britain entered WW2 as a result of keeping its promise to Poland, and did its darned best to continue doing so despite bankrupting itself in the process. And Germany declared war on the US.

As for mutual self determination: all diplomacy is based on reciprocity. If it's deemed an acceptable argument to point to our intervention as why we are a fair target (and NB. his sister said it was US attacks that made him decide to attack us), why is the reciprocal deemed to be unacceptable? Why are they allowed to say that we shouldn't be there, but we're not allowed to say that they shouldn't be here?

[Montmorency]

In case you missed it, Britain entered WW2 as a result of keeping its promise to Poland, and did its darned best to continue doing so despite bankrupting itself in the process. And Germany declared war on the US.

As for mutual self determination: all diplomacy is based on reciprocity. If it's deemed an acceptable argument to point to our intervention as why we are a fair target (and NB. his sister said it was US attacks that made him decide to attack us), why is the reciprocal deemed to be unacceptable? Why are they allowed to say that we shouldn't be there, but we're not allowed to say that they shouldn't be here?

So the UK had reason to contest German self-determination (though honor toward Poland wasn't ultimately a significant factor).

Again you conflate a number of different questions.

What is a matter of deserts and what is a matter of consequences? Whether or not you believe British foreign policy is a direct cause of terrorist attacks, it's a petulant display to treat a country like a sports team fanatic, endlessly whingeing about it but calling it the pinnacle of oppression when non-fanatics offer an opinion too. This is a question you need to give proper consideration regardless of whether the actions of terrorists are right or wrong.

The self-determination of domestic radicals isn't that of countries, these being different kinds of entities; you shouldn't apply the term to individuals at all, in fact. Domestic radicals are additionaly your countrymen, and the actions they undertake are usually straightforwardly criminal under British law. Don't try to apply concepts to inappropriate contexts.

[Pannonian]

So the UK had reason to contest German self-determination (though honor toward Poland wasn't ultimately a significant factor).

Again you conflate a number of different questions.

What is a matter of deserts and what is a matter of consequences? Whether or not you believe British foreign policy is a direct cause of terrorist attacks, it's a petulant display to treat a country like a sports team fanatic, endlessly whingeing about it but calling it the pinnacle of oppression when non-fanatics offer an opinion too. This is a question you need to give proper consideration regardless of whether the actions of terrorists are right or wrong.

The self-determination of domestic radicals isn't that of countries, these being different kinds of entities; you shouldn't apply the term to individuals at all, in fact. Domestic radicals are additionaly your countrymen, and the actions they undertake are usually straightforwardly criminal under British law. Don't try to apply concepts to inappropriate contexts.

And there is the salient point. They were born here, but their parents weren't. And radicalism does not decrease with each successive generation, but it's the younger generation, born here and raised here, who cause problems. If we can't remove these from the pool as they're our countrymen, why should we further add to that pool? After all, future prospective incomers aren't our countrymen, but outsiders from another country.

[Montmorency]

And there is the salient point. They were born here, but their parents weren't. And radicalism does not decrease with each successive generation, but it's the younger generation, born here and raised here, who cause problems. If we can't remove these from the pool as they're our countrymen, why should we further add to that pool? After all, future prospective incomers aren't our countrymen, but outsiders from another country.

Could it be a better idea to engage the problem than to abdicate responsibility? Religious or national quarantines indicate an outstanding level of disdain for those who currently are your countrymen, aside from demanding a departure from contemporary British ideals. To many of your fellows who find your approach inimical to their view of the country, you would come to exemplify the understanding that "the enemy of my enemy is not my friend but my enemy's enemy".

[Husar]

Unlike you, I respect the principle of self determination.

I have no recollection of what you are referring to I'm afraid, but given that you constantly blame me for things you only imagine me saying, that's perfectly fine with me.
It just bothers me that you claim you support self-determination and yet defend the colonial adventures of your country that robbed people of self-determination and put them into artificial nation-states that obviously aren't actual nations and don't work. But hey, I just hate you so it's all fine, nothing to see here, keep calm and pretend you never did anything wrong.
And just in case you want to follow this up with a "but he was a 2nd gen immigrant!", the people who benefitted from his brainwashing and wanted to brainwash him for their purposes probably aren't.

Just as the Zulu's actions doesnt nullify the wrongs of the british invasion, the iraq war doesnt make right of this terrorist attack.

I don't think a lot of people say it does. What many might say is that it is a logical consequence to some extent. You reap what you sow and so on. This may shock you, but I'm as much against terrorist attacks as you are.