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    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    You talk a load of baloney about stuff that happened outside my lifetime. Well within my lifetime my country has largely withdrawn from setting up right wing dictatorships, while I have seen the growth of Islamism and bleeding heart liberal apologists (who come from the same page as the Communist apologists whom Orwell despised). I can't do owt about stuff that happened before I was born. But I can do whatever I can about stuff that happens in my lifetime. And unlike you, at least I follow through with my arguments to arrive at whatever conclusion the argument directs me to. In your case of course, you start with the conclusion and find the argument to support your conclusion.

    And as for youths yearning for liberal democracy: read about the killings of atheists and "blasphemers" in south Asia. It's the youths who are the most militant in that region. Even ones attending university (cf. the student who was lynched at uni for blasphemy).
    He's perfectly correct in referencing things that happened outside your lifetime. We are the product of the past and as such must deal with the complications that come from our forefathers thinking for better or worse.

    I don't have any cause with those bleeding hearts types but the rise of Islamism is a reaction to the socialist-nationalism that arose in the '50s and '60s. That nationalism was in turn a reaction to the collapse of the Ottoman order together with colonialism. That colonialism in turn is a result of mercantilism and security policies (Barbary Coast pirates).

    While I believe that Husar is always too quick to blame Europe/USAs intervention in the middle east as the primary cause of it's problems his arguments are logical.
    However, Europe's sphere has always extended to the whole Mediterranean basin, even the Roman's and Greeks saw it and it will always continue to be so. The European powers will meddle in the middle east when stronger just as those same countries have always strove to push their sphere into Europe when the situation allowed as well.

    Liberal democracies reflect their societies, setting them up in countries who's societies are opposed to us will naturally result in a government reflecting that. I don't excuse the out reach of these democracies in the slightest, I think it's a shame the governments there must make such a concession to their ultra conservative wings to placate the religious extremists but that's always going to happen when poverty and insecurity reign.
    I'm quite happy that the military is in charge of Egypt again even though that's extremely undemocratic of them. At the same time I'm happy that Tunisia is a democracy and is succeeding even if only precariously.

    Youths will always be the most militant, they are the easiest to sway, they have the least world experience and have a desire for a cause to fight for. All those bleeding heart liberals are of the same cut, they want something to fight for and fighting the ruling class, the government or nations is always more appealing than 'conforming' to accept a less exciting narrative. Why else are conspiracy theories so popular, the allure of hidden knowledge and being part of the underdog is very appealing to most youths.

    As for apologists, well a lot of them do have a point. I'm a patriot through and through but I can and do admit the wrongs of the present and past. It's not betrayal to admit wrong, it's not condemnation of your ancestors. I have family that fought for the Wehrmacht, am I ashamed? No, but I'm certainly not going to advocate that they should be especially proud either or white wash the crimes committed by the Wehrmacht. Same fore my US family, should I condemn my forefathers that fought the Indians/Native Americans in New England, no of course not. I'm not going to pretend however that they weren't the invaders either nor pardon their participating in the slave trade (they had a plantation in Jamaica too).

    Point being that there are two sides to each issue, to dismiss the one you don't like just because is just as reckless as those that dismiss your opinion. The world is very very complicated, trying to oversimplify and blame/vilify just the Europeans/Americans or the Islamists is the same attitude the led the current situation.
    Accepting cruel dictators will lead to backlash just as stoking religious/nationalism in a democracy does.
    Last edited by spmetla; 10-02-2017 at 00:47.

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    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

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  2. #2
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    He's perfectly correct in referencing things that happened outside your lifetime. We are the product of the past and as such must deal with the complications that come from our forefathers thinking for better or worse.

    I don't have any cause with those bleeding hearts types but the rise of Islamism is a reaction to the socialist-nationalism that arose in the '50s and '60s. That nationalism was in turn a reaction to the collapse of the Ottoman order together with colonialism. That colonialism in turn is a result of mercantilism and security policies (Barbary Coast pirates).

    While I believe that Husar is always too quick to blame Europe/USAs intervention in the middle east as the primary cause of it's problems his arguments are logical.
    However, Europe's sphere has always extended to the whole Mediterranean basin, even the Roman's and Greeks saw it and it will always continue to be so. The European powers will meddle in the middle east when stronger just as those same countries have always strove to push their sphere into Europe when the situation allowed as well.

    Liberal democracies reflect their societies, setting them up in countries who's societies are opposed to us will naturally result in a government reflecting that. I don't excuse the out reach of these democracies in the slightest, I think it's a shame the governments there must make such a concession to their ultra conservative wings to placate the religious extremists but that's always going to happen when poverty and insecurity reign.
    I'm quite happy that the military is in charge of Egypt again even though that's extremely undemocratic of them. At the same time I'm happy that Tunisia is a democracy and is succeeding even if only precariously.

    Youths will always be the most militant, they are the easiest to sway, they have the least world experience and have a desire for a cause to fight for. All those bleeding heart liberals are of the same cut, they want something to fight for and fighting the ruling class, the government or nations is always more appealing than 'conforming' to accept a less exciting narrative. Why else are conspiracy theories so popular, the allure of hidden knowledge and being part of the underdog is very appealing to most youths.

    As for apologists, well a lot of them do have a point. I'm a patriot through and through but I can and do admit the wrongs of the present and past. It's not betrayal to admit wrong, it's not condemnation of your ancestors. I have family that fought for the Wehrmacht, am I ashamed? No, but I'm certainly not going to advocate that they should be especially proud either or white wash the crimes committed by the Wehrmacht. Same fore my US family, should I condemn my forefathers that fought the Indians/Native Americans in New England, no of course not. I'm not going to pretend however that they weren't the invaders either nor pardon their participating in the slave trade (they had a plantation in Jamaica too).

    Point being that there are two sides to each issue, to dismiss the one you don't like just because is just as reckless as those that dismiss your opinion. The world is very very complicated, trying to oversimplify and blame/vilify just the Europeans/Americans or the Islamists is the same attitude the led the current situation.
    Accepting cruel dictators will lead to backlash just as stoking religious/nationalism in a democracy does.
    Husar once castigated Britain for what it was doing wrong in Syria. I then presented him with two models of foreign policy, both incidentally founded on liberalism, and asked him which he favours. He then ummed and aahed over how circumstances dictate what to do, sit on the fence, etc. Even after I explained to him that, post-WWI, one model was the default, to be assumed in the absence of any other bilateral/multilateral agreements. To accept one or the other model would, you see, deprive him of an avenue by which to criticise Britain for doing things wrong, as he's consistently done so using both models (intervention/non-intervention). Kage, unlike Husar, grasped the historical argument that is still the basis of international affairs today, and correspondingly accepted the logic of that argument.

    The two models were as follows.

    1. Self determination is the basis of all nations. A nation should choose its own government and form of government by itself, without outside interference. This has been the default since Woodrow Wilson in WWI.
    2. Liberal democracy is the form to which all societies aspire to. Where dictatorships reign, this is against the natural order, and action should be taken to remove the dictatorship and transition into liberal democracy. This is the basis of neoconservatism, and has been discredited since Iraq.

    So when a dictatorship is currently in power, what should Britain do? Should Britain take action against the dictatorship that it had some part in setting up generations before? Or should it leave alone?

    Kage accepted that self-determination is indeed the basis of international affairs, and that deviations from such would be wrong. Husar recognised that accepting either model would deprive him of his correct conclusion, which is that Britain is in the wrong.

    As for apologism: see Orwell's observation that they will frequently indulge in all kinds of double thinking in order to show that Anglo-America are in the wrong, and that their chosen movement is in the right. The very source of the term doublethink satirises this.

  3. #3
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Kage, unlike Husar, grasped the historical argument that is still the basis of international affairs today, and correspondingly accepted the logic of that argument.
    [...]
    Kage accepted that self-determination is indeed the basis of international affairs, and that deviations from such would be wrong. Husar recognised that accepting either model would deprive him of his correct conclusion, which is that Britain is in the wrong.


    Go on, this is fun to read. I really like Kage, too.


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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post


    Go on, this is fun to read. I really like Kage, too.
    "Raises up from a dusty corner of backroom". You summoned me and here i am. Uhm, self- determination. Yesshh..

    In my opinion the events around the Kurdish referendum has been a travesty. We should look at the whole area in this context as just looking at Iraq does not give us any clear picture at this point, while lumping this affair as internal affair of Iraq has been an easy way to look at the issue. The factors at Iraq are the Iraq Shia government, which is backed by Iran, The past Isis disgruntled Sunni at central and Northern Iraq and the Kurds at Eastern and Northern Iraq.

    To me it is rather lazy for the World to use rhetorics like the protection of integrity of state of Iraq, as there is no such thing anymore. The Shia government and Iran of course will do their utmost to hang into power in all Iraq, but if we look into the facts, such is not possible anymore. The Shia power is clear and solid in the South, but to control the central and the Northern Sunnis, without any radical change will only mean endless war. Iran is also worried about the aspirations of their Western Kurdish minority.
    Turkey, another power in the area is worried about Iraqi Kurdistan, since creation of Iraqi Kurdistan might launch creation of Syrian Kurdistan and even Turkish Kurdistan.

    The constant ethos of West has been that everything should be done in order to bring stability and peace to the area and create circumstances prolific for democracy. The closest thing for such can be found in Iraqi Kurdistan, where Kurdish have been harboring Assyrian, Turkmen and Jesidi minorities from Isis, while being the main antagonist of Isis from the total collapse of Iraq armed forces at Northern parts of the country back at 2014 until the start of the counter offensive of Government forces during 2016. The Kurdish region is also secular and the standing of women in their society is light years ahead of the rest of Iraq.

    With these points. It should be a no brainer, which side the West should be supporting in Iraq, but it is not so. The rhetoric range from "stability" to "avoiding further fragmentation" to "defusing the situation". Aka simply rhetorics for rhetorics. Only clear cut supporter of Iraqi Kurdistan referendum was Israel, but while Iran, Turkey and Iraq goverment are having military manouvers at the borders of Kurdistan. One thing these countries and also the international community might be forgetting is that with the 93% support for the independency, battle tested armed forces and stabile internal situation, added the geography of the area. Pressing the Iraqi Kurdistan back to fold might be something more the other factions might be able to chew. And yes that is self- determination.
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 10-03-2017 at 09:06.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    If you don't mind, Kage, now that everyone has read your excellent post, I'm just going to leave this here:

    https://www.facebook.com/BuzzFeedInd...3678086359339/

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    'Why?' you ask?
    Well, of course because I find it "hilarious" in my depravity and bias.


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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    If you don't mind, Kage, now that everyone has read your excellent post, I'm just going to leave this here:

    https://www.facebook.com/BuzzFeedInd...3678086359339/

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    'Why?' you ask?
    Well, of course because I find it "hilarious" in my depravity and bias.
    The Husarian equivalent of Godwin.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Husarian equivalent of Godwin.
    http://listverse.com/2013/03/12/10-w...ned-the-world/

    http://www.srimatham.com/uploads/5/5...ned_india_.pdf

    The Indian trade was ruined through restrictive trade practices. During the early stages of
    Industrial revolution, Indian goods then exceedingly competitive were levied 70 to 80 %
    duties. Even later, the machine made British goods enjoyed 10 to 27 percent duty
    advantage over Indian goods manufactured by traditional means. As the Indian finished
    goods became less and less competitive, the policies slowly made India an agricultural
    colony, and the exports of raw goods feeding the British Empire, rose as finished goods
    exports fell. Impoverished masses from the Indian industrial centres rushed to villages to
    agriculture. The landowners were already heavily taxed far in excess of previous foreign
    rulers. Then the British changed the law, and allowed the new Œcapital holders’ to own
    the land in India. The British bought lands for plantations, which were manned by Indian
    slave labour. Thus even the agricultural export profits benefited only the British
    plantation owners, and not the starving labourers. Let us look at the details of how this
    was done. It was a deliberate policy of the Board of Directors of the East India Company,
    since 1769. In the early nineteenth century the duty on Muslin and Calico was more than
    27 and 71 percent ad valorem, respectively. Even then, British manufacturers were
    unable to compete with Indian Manufacturers; hence Britain prohibited the import of
    Calico cloths. Heavy protective duties -- 70 and 80 percent, respectively- were imposed
    on the Indian silk and cotton goods in England. These ruined those industries in India,
    while British goods were imported into India at nominal duty.

    [...]

    By 1850, India, which had for centuries exported cotton goods to the whole world, was
    importing one-fourth of all British cotton exports. In any technology revolution, old
    methods must make way for the new ones. But during the industrial revolution, which
    was taking place in Britain, the resulting ruin of the millions of artisans and weavers in
    India was not accompanied by the growth of new forms of industry in India. The old
    populous towns like Dacca, Surat and Murshidabad (which Clive in 1757 had described
    as Œextensive, populous, and rich as the city of London) and the like were in a few years
    rendered desolate under the ŒPax Britannica’. The population of Dacca, the Manchester
    of India, decreased from 150,000 to 30,000! In 1890, Sir Henry Cotton wrote, „ less than
    a hundred years ago, the whole commerce of Dacca was estimated at ten million rupees
    and its population at 200,000. In 1787 Dacca’s muslin exports to England amounted to 3
    million rupees; in 1817 they had ceased altogether. The arts of spinning and weaving∑.
    have now become extinct.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ev...ined_the_World


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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    If you don't mind, Kage, now that everyone has read your excellent post, I'm just going to leave this here:

    https://www.facebook.com/BuzzFeedInd...3678086359339/

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    'Why?' you ask?
    Well, of course because I find it "hilarious" in my depravity and bias.
    Thank you for the compliment Hus.

    About this matter...I am not sure i want to dive into this can of worms. Maybe the question concerning issues like this is: How long we have to carry the burden of our ancestors? Is Pannonian´s job to defend what British did at India during 19th century based on their 19th century values, or should our US members still feel bad about the treatment of American natives? Is such relevant at all?
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    Thank you for the compliment Hus.

    About this matter...I am not sure i want to dive into this can of worms. Maybe the question concerning issues like this is: How long we have to carry the burden of our ancestors? Is Pannonian´s job to defend what British did at India during 19th century based on their 19th century values, or should our US members still feel bad about the treatment of American natives? Is such relevant at all?
    More relevantly, does the history of India mean that we were wrong to intervene in Iraq because it added to the sum of human suffering, and correspondingly wrong to not intervene in Syria because it added to the sum of human suffering? Constructive criticism accepts the unavoidable fact that people will make errors of judgement, and establish guidelines that all know and will operate by. Since WWI, the basic guideline has been self determination, the ability to choose one's government and form of government free from outside interference, with the corresponding inference that empires should be disestablished and colonies made independent. The British empire is gone, and India is independent, and there are diplomatic relations between Britain and its former colonies. So why does Husar bring up India when I'm arguing that we have no business interfering in the affairs of other countries?

    I point you to Orwell's observation of Communist apologists, who operate by the guideline that Anglo-America is wrong, and will twist their perception of reality to support that argument. Start with the conclusion, then find an argument to support that conclusion.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    Thank you for the compliment Hus.

    About this matter...I am not sure i want to dive into this can of worms. Maybe the question concerning issues like this is: How long we have to carry the burden of our ancestors? Is Pannonian´s job to defend what British did at India during 19th century based on their 19th century values, or should our US members still feel bad about the treatment of American natives? Is such relevant at all?
    As spmetla said, it is relevant in the context that the present is a result of the past. I never said Pannonian should feel guilty about any of that, just that he can't blame everything entirely on the Indians, Africans or whoever of today. Their views, behavior etc. are a result of what their parents did and taught them and that was partially a result of what colonialism did to them. All we can do is try not to repeat those mistakes of the past and perhaps let those wounds heal.
    Denying any wrongdoing on the other hand just leads to more rejection on the other side, especially when our behavior today perpetuates some of the injustices created in and left over from the past.

    I don't feel personally guilty for WW2, why would I expect the British to feel personally guilty for Colonialism?
    If De Beers (or Shell, or another Western Corporation) still exploits a post-colonial world order in order to exploit African countries and transfer all the profits to the accounts of rich European "landowners" and we are somehow okay with that while we blame Africans for being so poor, that's a different story...
    If the poor Africans were to murder everyone at DeBeers and their local supporters because that's the only way for them to profit from the diamond trade as a people, we'd probably call them terrorists instead of saying it's self-determination.

    Think about things like this: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/13/he...king-laws.html

    Alarmed about rising smoking rates among young women, Namibia, in southern Africa, passed a tobacco control law in 2010 but quickly found itself bombarded with stern warnings from the tobacco industry that the new statute violated the country’s obligations under trade treaties.

    Continue reading the main story
    FEATURED COMMENT

    barbara8101 Philadelphia
    What is really under discussion in this article is whether tobacco companies have a right to kill people. In my view, that sums it up.
    270 COMMENTS
    “We have bundles and bundles of letters from them,” said Namibia’s health minister, Dr. Richard Kamwi.

    Three years later, the government, fearful of a punishingly expensive legal battle, has yet to carry out a single major provision of the law, like limiting advertising or placing large health warnings on cigarette packaging.
    I fully expect Pannonian to say that if they're independent countries, it is their fault for signing the trade treaty, completely ignoring that they're desperate to regain any kind of industry and don't have the same education standards whereas we employ lawyers they probably couldn't even afford to write and negotiate these contracts.
    My point is we should know better if we're educated and moral people. If we just exploit them because we can, then we're not morally superior in any way.
    Last edited by Husar; 10-04-2017 at 19:46.


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  11. #11
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The two models were as follows.

    1. Self determination is the basis of all nations. A nation should choose its own government and form of government by itself, without outside interference. This has been the default since Woodrow Wilson in WWI.
    2. Liberal democracy is the form to which all societies aspire to. Where dictatorships reign, this is against the natural order, and action should be taken to remove the dictatorship and transition into liberal democracy. This is the basis of neoconservatism, and has been discredited since Iraq.
    The problem with both your models is what is a nation? Should it be defined by ethicitity, language, race, borders (natural or historical)? Even Wilson's model was flawed, the Hungarians wanted independence from Austro-Hungary but they wanted to keep all of historical Hungary not just ethnic Hungary and even by that division there were plenty of Hungarians left out by this new nation of Hungary.
    Additionally, they are not exclusive and as such aren't really opposing models.
    At what level should self determination be limited? Should the world be filled with City-States again? I know Venice probably would be happy not paying for southern Italy's problems. Balkanization is the natural outcome if self determination is the rule.
    Is it the right of the Catalans to opt out of Spain just because they want to? Is it right of the Spanish to forcibly maintain the integrity of their country?
    Was it right for the US to fight the Confederacy to preserve the Union if the Southern States wanted to leave?

    As for liberal democracy being what all societies aspire to, I disagree. Some societies truly want theocracy, some want traditional monarchies. Liberal democracy is really only the goal for literate affluent societies. Once you have enough folks educated enough and affluent enough they want control of their own affairs. It starts out with just the elite getting power, then the lower classes. Going from no liberty to full democracy is always a dangerous jump. The liberal part also requires a society that wants to protect minorities within (political, ethnic, linguist etc..), otherwise it's just a tyranny of the masses.

    As for Husar, he does have a very anti British bias. From what I've read he sees the the British Empire as the cause of all the problems today. Blaming the British method of creating nations post WWI is perfectly fine, it did lead to the current situation in in the greater scheme, as for what it should do I'd almost say there is nothing they could really do. Overthrowing Assad adds to problems, keeping him is also a problem, breaking up Syria into a Sunni republic and a City-State of Greater Damascus is also not doable.

    The question of intervention and non-intervention is never easy. If the US were in a position to militarily intervene in Burma to stop the genocide there would that be the right thing to do? Is it acceptable to allow someone to kill their own citizens and only intervene if they start killing other peoples citizens?

    As for the original scope of the thread, the situation is so damn complicated there really is no right answer. I'd suggest supporting the current governments in Iraq and Syria while negotiating for observation of conditions, a Marshal Plan style reconstruction plan, as well as forcing/negotiating concessions to secure the rights of minorities. As for the Kurdish question, it'd be good to push the current Syrian and Iraqi governments toward allowing for eventual Kurdish independence in a decade or so. There needs to be some stability in the region before creating 'new' nations as well as making sure to iron out borders and trade beforehand otherwise it leads to another war.
    Whatever we do we can't just ignore the problem there, limited intervention has it's place. The Yugoslav example is a good example of exactly the type of ethnic, religious, and historical problems at hand. While the situation in that region is stable now (even with the odd state of Kosovo existing) it is still precarious.
    Last edited by spmetla; 10-02-2017 at 03:28.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

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  12. #12
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    The problem with both your models is what is a nation? Should it be defined by ethicitity, language, race, borders (natural or historical)? Even Wilson's model was flawed, the Hungarians wanted independence from Austro-Hungary but they wanted to keep all of historical Hungary not just ethnic Hungary and even by that division there were plenty of Hungarians left out by this new nation of Hungary.
    Additionally, they are not exclusive and as such aren't really opposing models.
    At what level should self determination be limited? Should the world be filled with City-States again? I know Venice probably would be happy not paying for southern Italy's problems. Balkanization is the natural outcome if self determination is the rule.
    Is it the right of the Catalans to opt out of Spain just because they want to? Is it right of the Spanish to forcibly maintain the integrity of their country?
    Was it right for the US to fight the Confederacy to preserve the Union if the Southern States wanted to leave?

    As for liberal democracy being what all societies aspire to, I disagree. Some societies truly want theocracy, some want traditional monarchies. Liberal democracy is really only the goal for literate affluent societies. Once you have enough folks educated enough and affluent enough they want control of their own affairs. It starts out with just the elite getting power, then the lower classes. Going from no liberty to full democracy is always a dangerous jump. The liberal part also requires a society that wants to protect minorities within (political, ethnic, linguist etc..), otherwise it's just a tyranny of the masses.

    As for Husar, he does have a very anti British bias. From what I've read he sees the the British Empire as the cause of all the problems today. Blaming the British method of creating nations post WWI is perfectly fine, it did lead to the current situation in in the greater scheme, as for what it should do I'd almost say there is nothing they could really do. Overthrowing Assad adds to problems, keeping him is also a problem, breaking up Syria into a Sunni republic and a City-State of Greater Damascus is also not doable.

    The question of intervention and non-intervention is never easy. If the US were in a position to militarily intervene in Burma to stop the genocide there would that be the right thing to do? Is it acceptable to allow someone to kill their own citizens and only intervene if they start killing other peoples citizens?

    As for the original scope of the thread, the situation is so damn complicated there really is no right answer. I'd suggest supporting the current governments in Iraq and Syria while negotiating for observation of conditions, a Marshal Plan style reconstruction plan, as well as forcing/negotiating concessions to secure the rights of minorities. As for the Kurdish question, it'd be good to push the current Syrian and Iraqi governments toward allowing for eventual Kurdish independence in a decade or so. There needs to be some stability in the region before creating 'new' nations as well as making sure to iron out borders and trade beforehand otherwise it leads to another war.
    Whatever we do we can't just ignore the problem there, limited intervention has it's place. The Yugoslav example is a good example of exactly the type of ethnic, religious, and historical problems at hand. While the situation in that region is stable now (even with the odd state of Kosovo existing) it is still precarious.
    So let's put these arguments to the test. If it is reasonable to look back generations to blame the people of today and thus argue that they should take responsibility, was Tony Blair right to attempt to redress the wrongs of the past by encouraging liberal democracy in Iraq? Don't bother with arguments over the aftermath and whether enough was done, as Blair's destroyed reputation is entirely to do with the initial invasion. I'd like Husar to answer that question too.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    So let's put these arguments to the test. If it is reasonable to look back generations to blame the people of today and thus argue that they should take responsibility, was Tony Blair right to attempt to redress the wrongs of the past by encouraging liberal democracy in Iraq? Don't bother with arguments over the aftermath and whether enough was done, as Blair's destroyed reputation is entirely to do with the initial invasion. I'd like Husar to answer that question too.
    Blair is British, so he was obviously wrong.


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  14. #14
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    So let's put these arguments to the test. If it is reasonable to look back generations to blame the people of today and thus argue that they should take responsibility, was Tony Blair right to attempt to redress the wrongs of the past by encouraging liberal democracy in Iraq? Don't bother with arguments over the aftermath and whether enough was done, as Blair's destroyed reputation is entirely to do with the initial invasion. I'd like Husar to answer that question too.
    Where did I ever say to blame the people of today? Take responsibility if it is reasonable but at least admit the wrong doing. Case for that: annexation of Hawaii. US was wrong to support the overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy and then annex it a few years latter. I don't advocate blaming the current US government or generations of americans for the woes in Hawaii nor redressing it somehow by some sort of restoration of the monarchy there.

    You need to stop assuming that acknowledgement of past errors is equal with blaming the present. You can't address the present day problems without knowledge of past rights and wrongs.
    The 1953 Iranian overthrow example you and Husar used for example. The US was wrong to do it, of course. That doesn't mean I blame the US for all the reactionary wrongs that Iran has done in retribution against the "Great Satan." You cannot negotiate with today's Iranian government without acknowledging the past.
    Unlike the apologists and revisionists though I don't imagine that an Iranian democracy would have been sunshine and roses either, it would probably have devolved toward dictatorship, communism, or the current theocracy anyhow. That doesn't justify the actions taken by the Eisenhower administration however given the Cold War situation and what had just happened in China, Korea, Indo-China, Malaysia, and so on I can understand to seek pro-US stability even at the cost of a harsh police state instead of allowing the nationalization of Anglo-Iranian Oil and allowing the Pandora's box of possibilities to occur in such a vital country.

    As for your specific question, I don't think Tony Blair was wrong by encouraging liberal democracy in Iraq. The method of achieving that goal through invasion and imposition of a system on a former dictatorship was in hindsight a terrible idea. Hell, it might even have worked if the Coalition Provisional Government under Paul Bremer hadn't so massively botched the job right from the start. Perhaps if Paul Bremer tried to understand the present day difficulties of Iraq and its complicated past he might have been successful instead of alienating the Sunni minority which now feared their disenfranchisement.

    Syria, even Syria, is missing the preliminary step to the Marshall Plan.
    Well of course it is, doesn't mean we shouldn't start rebuilding in Iraq and Kurdistan...again. For Syria we're in a post WWII Greece situation, support the nazi fighting communists or the nazi collaborating 'democrats?'
    When you apply principles and standards it's difficult. I'd prefer we support the Chiang Kai-sheks of the world and push for reform with carrot stick approaches than allow the Mao Zedongs and their radical Islamic equivalents to take over.
    Last edited by spmetla; 10-02-2017 at 18:57.

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    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    So let's put these arguments to the test. If it is reasonable to look back generations to blame the people of today and thus argue that they should take responsibility, was Tony Blair right to attempt to redress the wrongs of the past by encouraging liberal democracy in Iraq? Don't bother with arguments over the aftermath and whether enough was done, as Blair's destroyed reputation is entirely to do with the initial invasion. I'd like Husar to answer that question too.
    Such an arse-about-face way of looking at it. I know Blair himself saw /sees his middle east interventions as divine acts rejected by heathens, but he's mad. We don't have to go along with it.

    The region has been politically and economically controlled and manipulated for centuries. There has never been any consideration of what the people want... With perhaps the exception of saddam in some circumstances.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  16. #16
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Such an arse-about-face way of looking at it. I know Blair himself saw /sees his middle east interventions as divine acts rejected by heathens, but he's mad. We don't have to go along with it.

    The region has been politically and economically controlled and manipulated for centuries. There has never been any consideration of what the people want... With perhaps the exception of saddam in some circumstances.
    So how does that hand wringing translate into a plan? What should be done? What shouldn't be done? How should this plan be decided?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Here are some musing from the BBC
    It has some dubious assumptions, but at least looks at some of the issues:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/o...-strategy.html
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  18. #18
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ding! Dong! The Witch is Dead!

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    As for the original scope of the thread, the situation is so damn complicated there really is no right answer. I'd suggest supporting the current governments in Iraq and Syria while negotiating for observation of conditions, a Marshal Plan style reconstruction plan, as well as forcing/negotiating concessions to secure the rights of minorities. As for the Kurdish question, it'd be good to push the current Syrian and Iraqi governments toward allowing for eventual Kurdish independence in a decade or so. There needs to be some stability in the region before creating 'new' nations as well as making sure to iron out borders and trade beforehand otherwise it leads to another war.
    Whatever we do we can't just ignore the problem there, limited intervention has it's place. The Yugoslav example is a good example of exactly the type of ethnic, religious, and historical problems at hand. While the situation in that region is stable now (even with the odd state of Kosovo existing) it is still precarious.
    Syria, even Syria, is missing the preliminary step to the Marshall Plan.

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