Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't even think any of those leans are that controversial at this point.

Pretty sure we all solved this game and our only quibbles are exactly where people go in the POE and some folks just haven't had the time to do the work to lock in their fellow lock townies or don't have the same exact brainwave I do on why they're town, but they're gonna get there anyway because we all know where to go next so it doesn't matter.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think the day one in this game was the single greatest day one of all time, if I am correct.

That's the only way this is even possible.

Half the townies were very townie, the ones that weren't super townie were correct, wolves all managed to arouse suspicion by someone, and wolves attempted to power wolf and it finally backfired, nuclear meltdown style.

This one's because town did it. You're all super stars.

[Choxorn]

I don't get how anyone's reading my interactions with Zack, Logic, and GH, and concluding that the 4 of us are a scumteam.

Pizza's right, it pretty much has to be Zack and Manasi for the last two scums.

GG.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't get how anyone's reading my interactions with Zack, Logic, and GH, and concluding that the 4 of us are a scumteam.

Pizza's right, it pretty much has to be Zack and Manasi for the last two scums.

GG.

I can even tell you my thinking.

"Someone's gotta be bussing".

During day 1, your posts also looked kind of generic, like these were all the right things to say but they were thin and not fleshed out. Like bussing for credit, something you will do on occasion.

But even at the time I was like yeah, but if he lynches all the woofs and never dies it's a problem.

But then I was like no it's not, you're choxorn and others pushed those cases, you have staying power. If anyone can bus it's you.

So I was like, he can possibly be scum still somehow, therefore he is scum.

Confirmation Bias.

Outside of that, you're having a hell of a game.

You're only not higher because my town is stacked and jacked, and wolves are wack and we found their pack.

[Montmorency]

I don't even think any of those leans are that controversial at this point.

Pretty sure we all solved this game and our only quibbles are exactly where people go in the POE and some folks just haven't had the time to do the work to lock in their fellow lock townies or don't have the same exact brainwave I do on why they're town, but they're gonna get there anyway because we all know where to go next so it doesn't matter.

OK, we see Zack and Manasi have some raw feelings to vent, as you would expect if they were either alignment, but...

I guess your advice would be that if they feel crushed by the game and have no desire to try to deal with it/possible nonsense, then even as townies they need to die (as well for their own sake).

Is there another way? It's a brutal situation. I was already feeling numb to the process and there's no threat of being methodically torn limb from limb by Inquisitor Pizza and his mob.



Crushing scum feels easier when the doomed don't pour their hearts hopes and dreams out, and die without a whisper. Right? Tell me other times with relentless POE were more sporting. (I bet it's the role action).

@Montmorency have you has time to ISO Cuth?

Not before the end of the night.

[Cuthillius]

i honestly

i don't

i

feel awful not posting, but i have nothing whatsoever to say and i'm incredibly tired

so

hi

and bye again

[Montmorency]

I did check the thread before this, I see Kage is dead and Zack-scum got vigged. Cool beans, Pizza.

CUTH ISO

Since Kage wanted it. I quote but don't describe or analyze some of the posts that are a bit dense for me or refer to unfamiliar meta. I don't have any conclusions to make about it off the bat.

Cuth has 28 posts, all but one during D1. Here's his N1 post to start off, maybe this way helps to organize the relation between the D1 itself and our knowledge of D2.

so we're sheeping pizza right

still think zack's town, still think dp's probably town

First block of posts (6 posts)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Banter with Pizza

pizza there's this guy in one of my classes who reminds me of you quite a lot

it's kinda funny

2. No takes at that stage of early game, (not too long after Pizza hooks onto Logic and 7 hours in). Better to return with rest.

i have no hot takes to drop

feel like getting >twice as much sleep as i did last night and coming back to this thread is probably the best course of action

3. DP a little weird with the reaction test (referencing "SPICY" to Zack given a recent game where DP did that as mafia).

i did think dp's been a bit weird and the reaction test was really... stiff and ???

4. Some comment directed to Logic, I can't decipher it.

also

logic i think i've always assumed you've played chess because y'know

5. DP asks for comments on the push against him (DP). Cuth thinks it's lazy but not very serious or effective.

not much of a push

i think the push itself is p lazy

but yeah someone voted you and you ~steppedish out of thread?

6. DP points out that he removed himself from the game for a spell to cool down from the push. Cuth asks why he thinks he got so upset. DP asks why he felt so antagonized right away, Post 353.

fair enough

why do you think you got particularly upset over that in particular in particular in particular?

Cuth returns most of a day later to drop several blocks over a period of hours, making the largest overall share of his activity. Here's the second overall block of posts (5 posts).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

7. Responding at length to a large post by Zack on why [Zack] decided to townread DP, mixed feelings on reinoe, and sussing Winston. Cuth has rested but has similar opinions to before: opposite conclusion on DP's behavior, who might be practicing meta-based WIFOM. Reinoe stood his ground which wolves find aversive, agreeing that it looks decent for reinoe but on meta has come to feel that other scum (players known to Cuth and Zack) can pull it off. Agrees as he talks that DP just "feels" town, though initially he was going to say ~neutral. Ultimately DP is acting in his scum range and he doesn't like how GH and some others are locking him already. Finally, Pizza had one post with town-lean tells.

yeah ok so

this

this addresses a lot of things i want to address

i slept on my thoughts, but my opinions on this game are still fairly similar to what they were

1. you're... i don't think you've giving him as much credit as ye should?

i got the opposite impression, that he was doing it in a really clunky and... calculated way that was obviously gimmicky

this was making sure someone asked him about it, this wasn't lay a little bait to see if you pick it up

i think dp is the sort of player in whose range it would be to say if i do this it will likely be perceived as lol awkward villagery?

2. i would have agreed with you in the past

but lissa in particular and a few others have reacted in a quite similar way as wolves

i do think it's... not bad at all for him

also i

you know

i'm stopping

wrt point three, i was going to say that i thought his game was ~neutral

but as i talk about it i do feel like

the simpler/more straightforward solution here is that he's just a villager

that said, i think it still overlaps somewhat with his wolf range, and i do have an issue with gh/others? locking him in at this stage of the game, especially given weak reasons of meta tells that dp is certainly aware of and well able to use/manipulate at this point

could well be that there are other unspoken reasons but /shrug

also i thought his "pizza has one tell" post was villagery so

8. Expressing bemusement at GH's attempt to wagon him [Cuth].

my what now

9. Reads Zack town. Also thinks Winston is town, but can't figure out why so put that on hold.

zack's a villager

he has all the things i look for, plus being more open/communicative about said things and his thought process

pizza's very probably a villager as well, from posting/gamestate/way people are reacting to him/his attitude towards the game so far

lines up very nicely with the last several villager games i've played with him in the last >year, and not with his wolf games

so

yee

also i think winston's very villagery but i have no idea why so i'm putting that on hold for now

10. Mixed feelings on the limited content from Manasi so far.

manasi who knows

started with content, which is by The Meta wolfy, but was quite aware that she did so and

hasn't really given enough at this point for any reasonable read of much solidity

11. Slaan opened weak and further posting had bad elements, but it's within his town meta.

i remember thinking slaan's opening yesterday was weak

it still lined up with how i feel he can play as villager

his posts since them have also been underwhelming/going in strange directions/unnecessary shadingtypestuff

it still lines up with how i feel he can play as villager

e.g. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053761668

Half an hour later, Block 3 (2 posts).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

12. Zack criticizes fencesitting in Cuth's read of DP. Cuth says that's the point, that they more or less agree on DP but Cuth feels less strongly that DP is town.

no that's kinda

the gist?

there is no reason to scumread him, and i do agree with you for the most part, if not to the magnitude that you do

13. To Zack weakly sussing him for going after easy or consensus reads on strong players, Cuth gives a fairly genuine-sound self-meta explaining that he doesn't want to recklessly throw out leans any more and that in this game he has two town reads (DP and ?) and the rest are all wobbly. Zack's response is included below.

...

i honestly don't know how i can be clearer or communicate my thought processes to you better

there was a time when i would have come in with many reads, including very probably several incorrect wolf leans

i've changed, and i have different aims and beliefs about the game than i did when i played with you in the past, for the most part

i legitimately have a wobbly read on everyone in the game except for the two people i have called villagers, as you said

i'm honestly doing my best to show the thoughts i am having

don't really know what else to say, but felt like i should say something

I don't have any problem with your communication this time around, per se. But you very quickly called me, winston, and pizza all villagers pretty easily, when despite the number of words you've written about others, haven't really come to any conclusions. It pings me, ducy.

45 minutes later Block 4 (4 posts) begins, spread out over a slightly longer period of time.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

14. Cuth asks DP for a spicy take, and gets Csargo as the answer. Zack wonders if DP distinguishes between not-wolf and town, since even though he doesn't like the Csargo push calling him town is a leap.

dp, gimme a spicy take

15. Cuth tells Zack that he doesn't have much of a read on Winston, who has burned him in the past. His feelings are unstable.

i don't have much of a lean on winston

i've been burned in the past

i'm not going to maintain that as a read unless i actually can come up with some reason

16. GH is popping in around now, and as Pizza (or Kage?) noted he doesn't mention Cuth again despite ostensibly pushing him. As for Cuth, he responds to DP's town-read on Csargo.

how so tonally sound

i agree that lack of wim is a bad reason and is generally, including in this case, nai

nevertheless

do you mean "didn't make any obvious wolfslips"

or does the fact that there's a bad case on him make you think he's more villagery

but fair enough i'm fine with this read and the way you phrased it

17. Zack in turn presses Cuth on calling Winston a villager. Cuth retorts by posting gibberish and quoting where [Cuth] said that he isn't holding on to a read of Winston.

mepmep3char

Block 5 begins half an hour after the end of Block 4 (5 posts).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

18. Slaan is calling Cuth's post about him empty words for making knowledge claims about Slaan's meta. Cuth goes into depth.

no? i haven't read a single wolfgame from you, i'm just comparing it to when i have played with you, particularly anni

you just

are going in directions that... i don't expect and i don't think are the most productive, and i'm honestly not going to bother isoing you and quoting more

because it's a relatively thin read from my single read-through of this thread

and there's no huge reason i feel is making me want to or need to figure you out at this point

and... most people didn't have that weak of an opening? or at least felt more natural or, as is probably more applicable in the case, acted like i'm used to them acting, in that i've played with most of them at least multiple times

do you have a particular issue with me talking through a read of you/anyone else if i don't come to a firm conclusion at this point in the game?

19. Continuing with Slaan, some self-meta.

anni i wasn't as sleep-deprived, it was also lategame of a giant mash with tons of information and players as opposed to a relatively small game on d1?

if that makes any tonal differences for ye

20. Slaan feels Cuth's posts aren't good, but maybe he would be more concise as scum. Also, Cuth is lacking a direct agenda, even if that's not a good basis for a townread. A bit of shared meta. Cuth responds laconically.

likewise

21. DP talks to Cuth about shared meta, other people in other games. Cuth expands a bit.

I understand the overall sentiment of this post, but I take issue with this portion of it. You know very well that I am not lissa, or "a few others", and personally, after playing with me for as many games as you have, I would think that you'ld know that I don't often do the expected thing. In particular, I really try and avoid getting heated as a wolf, because I feel it strays too close to the kind of emotional manipulation that makes me feel guilty, as opposed to the more fun gleefully lying about what I feel and why I feel it. Your first post is slightly accurate in that I can certainly imagine myself screwing around a little like that as a wolf, but overall I think I'd only do that at MU. After how fast I was caught as scum the one time I randed it on this website, I'm pretty sure that if it happened again, I'd be really frozen and clunky in my posting out of fear of that same kind of rapid collapse.

yeah i know my point was more that i didn't think she'd react like that in a similar situation, but it did, ergo is possible for you

fair enough

that's kinda where i ended up at the end of the post, figuring you could and you definitely have the ability to, but is probably fairly unlikely given the context

22. Cuth thanks DP for his honesty.

thank you for your honesty

i was actually wondering about that just the tiniest bit

and i completely understand

i think

i hope

Block 6 begins 1.5 hours later, tying off his string of posts for the time being (2 posts). kage is voting Cuth and wants other peoples' takes. Short exchange between Kage and Slaan on how Slaan sees Cuth and how it supports Kage's vote on Cuth.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

23. Cuth asks DP if he's having a nice evening. DP isn't, he's very busy, and how is Cuth doing?

hey dp

having a nice evening?

24. Cuth tells DP what he's doing, banters.

ow eesh

tests on weekend? that's rough

i have a goodly amount of homework, but have been slacking and just making cookies and talking on discord

gl with the hw, hope the stuff goes well and you don't have to stay up too late

The rest of his posts () are unorganized, they come toward EOD or the runup.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

25. A day after the last block, Winston is looking good and moves up in the pile. Pizza's gut reaction is to town-read this post, with long post and further discussion on Cuth and various matters.

winston's stuff recently looks good

i like what he's doing and where he's going

movin' him up

Up to this post GH says Cuth looks a bit better than before, but isn't there yet. Slaan questions his impression of Cuth as a strong player.

Another favorable read post on Cuth by Pizza.

Strikes me as a real thought townies have.

It may not be a perfect process, but I often have to juggle who I invest my time in. I often deliberately put some people in a vaguely town or vaguely suspect limbo state and wait until they do more, or I have more time, to tackle the slot.

I feel like such thoughts go missing from a scum-perspective. That's not on the forefront of their mind which is why this is more town indicative when you see it.

It's not widely thought of as a town tell so only the truly best scum actors should be faking this brainwave.

That should mean I have a strong town read on Cuth by now. I don't think my gut has caught up to my head.

26. Cuth thinks Monty interacting with or pairing Zack-Winston early in the game was weird. It's not game related but Monty is trying to force it to be (?).

monty's interaction with winston/zack at the beginning of the game is really really weird

i just

don't think it's particularly game-related

it

still really just bothers me a little

i feel like he drags something that's unrelated anything out for no discernable reason?

it's not even fluff or stuff, it just feels like it's taking fluff and... almost trying to get it to a game-related area without doing so?

probably reading into it too much

27. Logic's post on being confused by Pizza's posting in a way similar to DP feels discredit-y.

this post feels mildly discredit-y

[Montmorency]

You know, it's kind of amazing. We got (I'ma say we, don't get too arrogant here Pizza) a Zack-GH pairing eliminated so quickly. I feel empowered.

The last scum is very likely a low-poster. It seems we all know the score. Vote: Manasi

I'm should be arguing caution (here and on the race to lock town reads), but it's tempting - @Askthepizzaguy, do you think you want to put together one of those "epic" posts with the gifs and formatted text walls and embedded musics?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm should be arguing caution (here and on the race to lock town reads), but it's tempting - @Askthepizzaguy, do you think you want to put together one of those "epic" posts with the gifs and formatted text walls and embedded musics?

I don't feel like doing anything right now.

Basically the only thing I'm prepared to discuss is why the people I've said are town are not town.

Until someone comes to me with something reasonable (which, be forewarned, I disagree with and am a skeptical audience, so don't expect me to roll over) I am prepared to POE this out.

Now, if someone wolfy crawled sky high in my and everyone's leans lists, good for them. Let the people who live to endgame sort it out.

Everything important that happened happened on day 1.

If Manasi was up to playing the game I'd be interested in hearing her thoughts, but since it's been I'm scum, and wrong, all game long, and she's stated she's not having fun, I'm more inclined to give her DVC asap. No more posturing or walls from me, no more AtE from anyone else.

[Montmorency]

*stiff salute*

Vote: Manasi

[Montmorency]

Actually. Unvote

Should we take today easy, or do we really rush through the hammer.

[Montmorency]

Now, my opinion summarized of the Cuth ISO:

Positive, genuine interactions with DP and Slaan are the best feature.

Generally a standard Cuth approach to the game and to thinking about things (though I've never seen him scum).

On GH-Logic spew that Pizza emphasizes, if it's two different scum doing separate things with Cuth, then for a D1 state that does look fairly clearing.

But it has to be re-evaluated in the last few rounds I think, if the game isn't over.

[Montmorency]

Oh yeah, and I should note that Zack displayed some aggression and nitpicking toward Cuth in the middle of the day.

[Dp101]

Now, my opinion summarized of the Cuth ISO:

Positive, genuine interactions with DP and Slaan are the best feature.

Generally a standard Cuth approach to the game and to thinking about things (though I've never seen him scum).

On GH-Logic spew that Pizza emphasizes, if it's two different scum doing separate things with Cuth, then for a D1 state that does look fairly clearing.

But it has to be re-evaluated in the last few rounds I think, if the game isn't over.

Side note, Cuth interactions with me that were genuine were fairly low key/not entirely game related, so I’m not sure how much they contribute to his innocence or lack thereof. Currently I’d place him at a bit above null.

In other news, I’m starting to wonder if there was even a purpose to me playing this game, given that my play has basically been watching Pizza solve everything and following. I mean, I kinda outed GH and Zack with my CFD opinion, but as much as I wish that I could call that a deliberate gambit, I was simply giving my honest thoughts at that point.

[Slaan]

Huh, didn't think actually that Zack is mafia (or rather would've killed manasi/chox before him), nice :)

I'm with just hammering down our PoE at this point. I'd start looking at others when the last mafia isnt among manasi or chox... but I doubt that will be necessary.

Vote: Manasi

[Askthepizzaguy]

Side note, Cuth interactions with me that were genuine were fairly low key/not entirely game related, so I’m not sure how much they contribute to his innocence or lack thereof. Currently I’d place him at a bit above null.

In other news, I’m starting to wonder if there was even a purpose to me playing this game, given that my play has basically been watching Pizza solve everything and following. I mean, I kinda outed GH and Zack with my CFD opinion, but as much as I wish that I could call that a deliberate gambit, I was simply giving my honest thoughts at that point.

Don't you do this.

If you forgot your day one, you said certain things looked townie and I was like incorrect at you. And you said that GH and Zack's cfd on you was scummy, and had to get me to even re-read it because I never read it. And it still didn't sink in the first couple times I read it. I was almost ready to let them go because it looked too wrong and strategically bad to be scummy.

Just because someone else is having a good game doesn't diminish yours. Check the scoresheet when the game is over, and the stuff that's in column "Dp101 thought of it first and was right when pizza was wrong" is going to include multiple things in it.

Also I spent most of day one calling Zack and GH town. Go me.

We have but one player to look up to, and that is the wise prophet Winston Hughes, reaver of scums. He died for our sins.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If there's nothing being said in this thread, and you want to do something with this game, go back to page one and read the game knowing Zack, GH, and Logic were all scum.

Look for townies and tell me why. That's all we have to do, since day 2 and day 3 and every day going forward is utterly meaningless compared to that day, and until we start lynching townies, nothing matters here.

There's one scum left. Tell me who is not that person.