EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

[Beskar]

Didn't Churchill cover this with his "best argument against democracy?"

This caller called Steve gave his reasons for voting Leave: http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenter...-brexit-voter/

Worth a watch/listen.

[Pannonian]

This caller called Steve gave his reasons for voting Leave: http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenter...-brexit-voter/

Worth a watch/listen.

The poster of Turkey's accession to the EU and the 350m/week for the NHS were significant factors in the campaign. Both were lies.

[Furunculus]

, the fact a large percentage saw it as a campaign promise they believed in meant that it's current exposure of being an open lie puts the mandate in doubt and if it was known before the vote, remain would have easily won on this fact alone (never mind the distastors since).

No, it really doesn't put the mandate in doubt.


That.you wish it to be so does not make it true.

[Beskar]

No, it really doesn't put the mandate in doubt.
That.you wish it to be so does not make it true.

My wish would be that it wasn't hogwash and Brexit would mean this hypothetical utopia a lot of Brexiteers claim it would be as I would selfishly benefit from this decision. However, even though I wish this, as you say, it does not make it true.

[rory_20_uk]

My wish would be that it wasn't hogwash and Brexit would mean this hypothetical utopia a lot of Brexiteers claim it would be as I would selfishly benefit from this decision. However, even though I wish this, as you say, it does not make it true.

The UK will suffer for quite a few years - mainly as it is the political wish of the EU for that to be so. If people could just leave the Project and treat it like it was the EEC then who would pay for all the EU jobs? The healthcare? The pensions? Stop the rot as quickly as possible - punish anyone that tries to leave.

[Pannonian]

The UK will suffer for quite a few years - mainly as it is the political wish of the EU for that to be so. If people could just leave the Project and treat it like it was the EEC then who would pay for all the EU jobs? The healthcare? The pensions? Stop the rot as quickly as possible - punish anyone that tries to leave.

You mean who would pay for useless skivers like Nigel Farage? Never in the European Parliament except to rail at how they're a useless waste of money, yet he's unwilling to give up a penny of the pension due to him as an MEP. At least Eurocrats believe in what they do. Brexiters are hypocrites.

[rory_20_uk]

You mean who would pay for useless skivers like Nigel Farage? Never in the European Parliament except to rail at how they're a useless waste of money, yet he's unwilling to give up a penny of the pension due to him as an MEP. At least Eurocrats believe in what they do. Brexiters are hypocrites.

I think there are more jobs than just his... The EMA (foe example) was supposed to do the work for regulating all medicines, and therefore the country agencies could be reduced. Did this happen? Of course not! They hired more staff to interface with the EMA which then had to hire more staff to talk to all the individual agencies.

And is he alone? The IRA haven't taken up their seats in the UK parliament for years yet take the full salary and allowance. The entire Northern Ireland assembly hasn't sat in months, and every single person still draws their salary.

So... if he were to do the non-work that all the others do, he'd be completely justified in the high salary and pension that he and all the other MEPs voted themselves? Do they believe in what they do, or believe in a large salary, a cushy job with almost no oversight, massive pension and staff allowance? Apparently you can read all their minds.

You are equally blinkered as those you place into the same homogeneous group.

[Pannonian]

I think there are more jobs than just his... The EMA (foe example) was supposed to do the work for regulating all medicines, and therefore the country agencies could be reduced. Did this happen? Of course not! They hired more staff to interface with the EMA which then had to hire more staff to talk to all the individual agencies.

And is he alone? The IRA haven't taken up their seats in the UK parliament for years yet take the full salary and allowance. The entire Northern Ireland assembly hasn't sat in months, and every single person still draws their salary.

So... if he were to do the non-work that all the others do, he'd be completely justified in the high salary and pension that he and all the other MEPs voted themselves? Do they believe in what they do, or believe in a large salary, a cushy job with almost no oversight, massive pension and staff allowance? Apparently you can read all their minds.

You are equally blinkered as those you place into the same homogeneous group.

And where have I ever defended Sinn Fein's stance?

[Fragony]

You mean who would pay for useless skivers like Nigel Farage? Never in the European Parliament except to rail at how they're a useless waste of money, yet he's unwilling to give up a penny of the pension due to him as an MEP. At least Eurocrats believe in what they do. Brexiters are hypocrites.

They should get the same as others, what is hypocritical about that. Should they give up everything because they don't agree with the eurocrites? That would make crowdfunding much more important than it ought to be, but they will get it regardless when cut off. I wish that was done really

What you wish for is not liking the EU to be suicidal, do you?

[rory_20_uk]

And where have I ever defended Sinn Fein's stance?

And where did I say you did defend it? I said he was not alone - perhaps calling out all parasites would have been seen as more balanced as opposed to focusing on one that fits your narrative.

[Pannonian]

They should get the same as others, what is hypocritical about that. Should they give up everything because they don't agree with the eurocrites? That would make crowdfunding much more important than it ought to be, but they will get it regardless when cut off. I wish that was done really

What you wish for is not liking the EU to be suicidal, do you?

I don't claim every benefit that I'm entitled to. If Farage does indeed believe so strongly in what he preaches, he should practice what he preaches, and have as little to do with the EU as possible. Instead, he leeches it for everything he can. I despise hypocrites like him.

[Pannonian]

And where did I say you did defend it? I said he was not alone - perhaps calling out all parasites would have been seen as more balanced as opposed to focusing on one that fits your narrative.

I despise hypocrites, not people who act as they preach. I respect politicians who put in the hard work that their office puts them in a position to make use of. Hence my respect of local councillors of all colours.

[Kralizec]

No, it really doesn't put the mandate in doubt.


That.you wish it to be so does not make it true.

The referendum was not binding, so by definition it is not a mandate...

[rory_20_uk]

I despise hypocrites, not people who act as they preach. I respect politicians who put in the hard work that their office puts them in a position to make use of. Hence my respect of local councillors of all colours.

Yes, they generally do what they do because they believe in what they do and get little in return.

What I am most amazed at is that Farage and all the others gets a £70k A YEAR pension for doing a job for a decade or so. Those that stay longer will be getting a six figure salary for decades of retirement - if they decide that sitting around is too much trouble.

[Husar]

Yes, they generally do what they do because they believe in what they do and get little in return.

What I am most amazed at is that Farage and all the others gets a £70k A YEAR pension for doing a job for a decade or so. Those that stay longer will be getting a six figure salary for decades of retirement - if they decide that sitting around is too much trouble.

And it still only gets them the mediocre managers on the job market at best. According to capitalist principles, those monetary incentives need to be doubled at least in order to attract the brightest minds and greatest talents.

[Pannonian]

And it still only gets them the mediocre managers on the job market at best. According to capitalist principles, those monetary incentives need to be doubled at least in order to attract the brightest minds and greatest talents.

The brightest minds should be sitting in the Lords without being threatened every so often with dissolution by the Commons. Democracy guards against tyranny. As is clear by the Brexit negotiations, it does not guard against idiocy. The will of the people cannot make the sun rise in the west and set in the east, even if the people do will it so.

[Furunculus]

The referendum was not binding, so by definition it is not a mandate...

that is a witty aside, but it doesn't really answer my response to beskar's original assertion.

[rory_20_uk]

And it still only gets them the mediocre managers on the job market at best. According to capitalist principles, those monetary incentives need to be doubled at least in order to attract the brightest minds and greatest talents.

Or to attract the pure mercenaries to get to do such pointless jobs requires this amount of money - those who want to spend their lives doing something useful go elsewhere: money is not the only driver for some people, but these jobs offer nothing else.

I shudder to think of the brightest minds and greatest talents wasted in this way. Capitalist principles would be to scrap the waste and reinvest the money in productive activities.

[Husar]

I shudder to think of the brightest minds and greatest talents wasted in this way. Capitalist principles would be to scrap the waste and reinvest the money in productive activities.

Replace all the fake democratic governments (down to city levels) with direct corporate rule?

[rory_20_uk]

Replace all the fake democratic governments (down to city levels) with direct corporate rule?

[Beskar]

Replace all the fake democratic governments (down to city levels) with direct corporate rule?

Have you been watching Continuum again?

You do have the City of London where guilds and companies have the vote. You then got descriptions of the USA as being a Corporatocracy.

[Gilrandir]

Democracy guards against tyranny.

It doesn't. As the Hitler case showed, a democratically elected person may eventually become a tyrant.

[rory_20_uk]

It doesn't. As the Hitler case showed, a democratically elected person may eventually become a tyrant.

The West has a fetish about Democracy as if having it suddenly cures all ills. There are many other things required first such as a functioning legal system and "moderate" voters - otherwise the 90% might vote for the 10% to be killed such as is happening in Burma. We seem surprised that when the West's darling gets the power she always wanted she does the job as she and the voters want, and does not become some wonderful tolerant person.

[Pannonian]

The West has a fetish about Democracy as if having it suddenly cures all ills. There are many other things required first such as a functioning legal system and "moderate" voters - otherwise the 90% might vote for the 10% to be killed such as is happening in Burma. We seem surprised that when the West's darling gets the power she always wanted she does the job as she and the voters want, and does not become some wonderful tolerant person.

And 52% might vote for the country to be scuppered for a generation, citing arguments that are provably false, and dismissing the advice of experts.

"I think this country has had enough of experts."
Michael Gove, currently cabinet minister.

[Pannonian]

And the next stage of the talks will be in March at the earliest, because David Davis said that the previous set of agreements may be changed if the UK sees fit. Goodness knows what other countries make of the UK's trustworthiness, when it think it can unilaterally change multilateral agreements.

[rory_20_uk]

And 52% might vote for the country to be scuppered for a generation, citing arguments that are provably false, and dismissing the advice of experts.

Yes, such a shame we can't continue the shift from the EEC to being a Federal State without a bothersome vote... And the economic argument is rather like threatening a partner who wishes to leave that they will be destitute.

Y'know it is rather strange how not so long ago we were oh so proud about standing up to tyranny whatever the cost... and now oh so upset that leaving one might have economic implications.

[Gilrandir]

And 52% might vote for the country to be scuppered for a generation, citing arguments that are provably false, and dismissing the advice of experts.

"I think this country has had enough of experts."
Michael Gove, currently cabinet minister.

The advice of experts are readily taken if they chime with what you think. Otherwise you will find other experts who will say the opposite, and you will believe them.

[Pannonian]

Yes, such a shame we can't continue the shift from the EEC to being a Federal State without a bothersome vote... And the economic argument is rather like threatening a partner who wishes to leave that they will be destitute.

Y'know it is rather strange how not so long ago we were oh so proud about standing up to tyranny whatever the cost... and now oh so upset that leaving one might have economic implications.

What's the tyranny that we're standing up to? What is it that we're fighting for by drinking the kool aid?

BTW, are you at all concerned by Davis's impact assessments?

[Furunculus]

And the next stage of the talks will be in March at the earliest, because David Davis said that the previous set of agreements may be changed if the UK sees fit.

cobblers, it has far more to do with the lack of a german coalition before then.

the EC itself described the agreement in similar terms.

[rory_20_uk]

What's the tyranny that we're standing up to? What is it that we're fighting for by drinking the kool aid?

BTW, are you at all concerned by Davis's impact assessments?

We don't need to stand up to it, we just need to move away from it. It is the way the EU Regulations get added straight to UK law. How their courts can overturn the UK courts if they choose.

I am capable of having a view on a subject and at the same time not agree with how the process has been undertaken. No sides have covered themselves in glory - the EU has set its demands and appears to view progress on "negotiation" how quickly the UK agrees with all the demands. The UK side appears to either be playing a very canny game or has no real clue what they want / think is realistic. Of course what they want is to leave with a full open access - who wouldn't? Of course that is not possible since the EU would not exist if people could have a free trade deal without the overheads.

My personal view has been related to the reduction / increasing removal of sovereignty of the UK to a relatively remove bureaucracy that mainly answers to other parts of itself. Not immigrants who in the main are more law abiding and productive than the locals. As you've probably gleaned I'd want a NAFTA / NATO situation covering both commercial and military treaties. But who would pay for all the supranational bureaucrats?