EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

[rory_20_uk]

Aren't we subject to a whole host of treaties and conventions that mean we no longer have full sovereignty? I can think of Geneva and Hague off the top of my head.

We joined. We can leave. Not really the same with Poland

[Pannonian]

We joined. We can leave. Not really the same with Poland

On a more concrete note, how are the EU threatening Poland's sovereignty? What measures are they taking?

[Husar]

From this one in June, it is in response to Poland threatening to remove separation of powers and breaking EU law.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-independence

Well, it's obviously not fair, the EU should say it promotes human rights and still let every country elect Nazi parties.
I'm sure the ECHR could find a good slogan for the entrances of death camps "sovereignty would save you" or so...

We joined. We can leave. Not really the same with Poland

This is a weird comment coming from a country currently in the process of leaving the EU.

[Fragony]

bzzzzzt #nuts

[rory_20_uk]

This is a weird comment coming from a country currently in the process of leaving the EU.

It will take 2 years. Plus a transition plan. Plus many, many penalties.

Compare that to leaving the others - or America pulling out of the TPP or the Paris accord. There are different types of involvement. As I have repeatedly said, I would be more than happy with a EEC-like free trade agreement where again parties are able to give notice they are leaving and that is about it.

[Husar]

It will take 2 years. Plus a transition plan. Plus many, many penalties.

Compare that to leaving the others - or America pulling out of the TPP or the Paris accord. There are different types of involvement. As I have repeatedly said, I would be more than happy with a EEC-like free trade agreement where again parties are able to give notice they are leaving and that is about it.

You cannot have the same level of cooperation and efficiency in a loose treaty.
IMO the EU offers a lot of advantages that a mere trade partnership does not, I do not want what you want, so you leaving entirely may indeed be the best solution.

[Gilrandir]

Well, it's obviously not fair, the EU should say it promotes human rights and still let every country elect Nazi parties.

You mean like Austria?

[Husar]

You mean like Austria?

Yes.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/921894.stm

Mr Fischer said that while the Austrian Government was legitimate, it should not be taken for granted that a party which had politically exploited hostility toward foreigners should participate in government in a united Europe.

That's from 2000, we will see what happens now. Their right wing party is not the majority partner in the new government coalition though.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Yes.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/921894.stm



That's from 2000, we will see what happens now. Their right wing party is not the majority partner in the new government coalition though.

I am assuming all worries about Anschluss can be set aside.

[Beskar]

Moving from the rather nice looking Burgundy passports to an ugly Blue, because Blue is "More British"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42443253

That's Brexhit for you.

[Husar]

Moving from the rather nice looking Burgundy passports to an ugly Blue, because Blue is "More British"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42443253

That's Brexhit for you.

Wasn't it the British red coats vs the French in blue?

[Greyblades]

The classic redcoats fought the french when they were still monarchists, so it would be redcoats vs whitecoats, by the time the french went blue the british uniform were becoming more akin to tunics than coats. Plus no redcoat would be seen dead in burgundy after all half the point was to hide the blood!

Blue is the colour of the Navy, of which we have a more cultural attachment to than the army and gold on blue is honestly a pretty nice combo, though I do think silver would be better.

[Fragony]

Unepected, ukip supports a new referendum to settle it once and for all. That's pretty brave and I really respect that. Prepare to cry pro-remainers

[Pannonian]

Unepected, ukip supports a new referendum to settle it once and for all. That's pretty brave and I really respect that. Prepare to cry pro-remainers

Do you really hate the British that much that you must gloat at our loss?

[rory_20_uk]

Unepected, ukip supports a new referendum to settle it once and for all. That's pretty brave and I really respect that. Prepare to cry pro-remainers

Settle once and for all? Like the Scottish referendum to leave where as soon as the SNP lost they started talking about when to have the next one?

If we have a second referendum and for the sake of argument it has a similar turn out and goes the other way. Do we then need a third one to decide? How long would this process take? Do discussions with the EU pause or continue?

Farage must be thinking he's not been in the newspapers for a few weeks. For better or worse, the UK has made worse decisions.

[Gilrandir]

If we have a second referendum and for the sake of argument it has a similar turn out and goes the other way. Do we then need a third one to decide?

As in NBA and NHL playoffs you will need four wins to secure the overall victory.

[Fragony]

Do you really hate the British that much that you must gloat at our loss?

For you I will call an ambulance, for eurocrats I won't, seeya

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Repeated referenda have had such a 'clarifying' effect in Quebec and Puerto Rico as well....

[Beskar]

Unepected, ukip supports a new referendum to settle it once and for all. That's pretty brave and I really respect that. Prepare to cry pro-remainers

LOL.

This would be the biggest disaster for Brexit campaign in the history of mankind. No bus is going to save them now. It is all a pack of lies and the country knows. The result will be an landslide victory for remain and will sink the Conservative government. Hell, just look at Furunculus and Pannanions arguments where Furunculus says "Well, Brexit doesn't need to be accountable for their promises, they won." this would really blow smoke up that trumpet.

Also, it is not UKIP, as they are whining big time about it and see it as a betrayal from their ex-furher, Clueless Farange, who is currently spending his time in the USA as a Fox News Employee sniffing Trumps and now having a bounty on his head by UKIP to be silenced. It is the Liberal Democrats which are waving their flags in praise of Farange's comments, the Pro-EU party.

Detachment from reality is well and truly astounding.

[Pannonian]

Repeated referenda have had such a 'clarifying' effect in Quebec and Puerto Rico as well....

The sitting PM called a general election earlier this year to clarify and strengthen her position for the forthcoming Brexit talks. She started with a small majority, and finished with a minority. What is this clarity and what does it indicate? NB. my arguments earlier in this thread where Brexiters argued that the Leave campaign were not obliged to be responsible for their promises. IIRC you commented on that.

[Fragony]

They won a fair game if the people choose to remain, nothing can and should be done if the Brits want to remain, another referendum is a good idea. I am pretty sure what the outcome will be but I have a history of being wrong. I already admitted Pan's could have been right the whole time

edit, was at Beskie

[Husar]

I am pretty sure what the outcome will be but I have a history of being wrong. I already admitted Pan's could have been right the whole time

You've done this a few times now, and it's a really weird way of not really saying anything.
It's hard to say though how a referendum would go. Beskar seems to think that a lot more would vote remain, but perhaps he underestimates how many might blame and want to "punish"/leave even more the EU for not kissing Britain's arse, falling over backwards and giving it everything it wants for nothing in return. It doesn't have to be logical for people to want it...

[rory_20_uk]

You've done this a few times now, and it's a really weird way of not really saying anything.
It's hard to say though how a referendum would go. Beskar seems to think that a lot more would vote remain, but perhaps he underestimates how many might blame and want to "punish"/leave even more the EU for not kissing Britain's arse, falling over backwards and giving it everything it wants for nothing in return. It doesn't have to be logical for people to want it...

Odd way of phrasing wanting to return to what existed pre-EU. Kissing the UK's arse? I think not.

I think that a vote would strongly go for "remain". Buyers remorse if you like. I do wonder what the turn out would be. Remainers probably would be out in force, those for an exit would be reduced.

Although the head of the EU have previously said that to return would not return to what was, but to a more diminished position - probably an even greater Danegeld where we can pay for free trade. It would be interesting that we then would have the options of returning to something we do not know or to leave to something we do not know. What "influence" we supposedly had has gone whatever happens for probably decades.

Things would be slightly better if we'd had a single transferable vote in the first place to reflect it is not as simple as yes / no but many nuances in terms of what outcomes people would accept.

[Pannonian]

Odd way of phrasing wanting to return to what existed pre-EU. Kissing the UK's arse? I think not.

I think that a vote would strongly go for "remain". Buyers remorse if you like. I do wonder what the turn out would be. Remainers probably would be out in force, those for an exit would be reduced.

Although the head of the EU have previously said that to return would not return to what was, but to a more diminished position - probably an even greater Danegeld where we can pay for free trade. It would be interesting that we then would have the options of returning to something we do not know or to leave to something we do not know. What "influence" we supposedly had has gone whatever happens for probably decades.

Things would be slightly better if we'd had a single transferable vote in the first place to reflect it is not as simple as yes / no but many nuances in terms of what outcomes people would accept.

Within this thread you have PFH arguing for a Norway option and Furunculus arguing for a neoliberal paradise. Both Leavers, yet arguing very, very different visions. Remain was the only campaign with a consistent manifesto, since their manifesto was reality as can be double checked by anyone wishing to research the subject. Hence I feel that if Leave wish to push their democratic mandate argument, they should be equally responsible for their campaign promises. Yet Furunculus has denied that the Leave campaign's promises should be upheld, arguing instead for a vision that even the likes of Farage played down during the campaign.

[rory_20_uk]

Within this thread you have PFH arguing for a Norway option and Furunculus arguing for a neoliberal paradise. Both Leavers, yet arguing very, very different visions. Remain was the only campaign with a consistent manifesto, since their manifesto was reality as can be double checked by anyone wishing to research the subject. Hence I feel that if Leave wish to push their democratic mandate argument, they should be equally responsible for their campaign promises. Yet Furunculus has denied that the Leave campaign's promises should be upheld, arguing instead for a vision that even the likes of Farage played down during the campaign.

Yes there are different groups who want to leave. Hardly surprising. Some probably are the xenophobe racists that the remain campaign accused them of (is that a campaign promise that has to be kept?) I imagine most are not.

There might be very different remainers. Some might be people who would become a Chinese vassal for a better standard of living, others that are Pan-Europeans, others who perceive voting leave as a racist act.

The remainers both have stated the UK will basically implode outside of the EU and have little to say about what the future of the EU will be - there have already been a series of steps for control to be centralised over the last years. Invariably treaties that require no need for the populace to vote. Double checking research on an economic future... guesses of people who already have their own view - when have economic forecasts ever been wrong??!?

[Pannonian]

Yes there are different groups who want to leave. Hardly surprising. Some probably are the xenophobe racists that the remain campaign accused them of (is that a campaign promise that has to be kept?) I imagine most are not.

There might be very different remainers. Some might be people who would become a Chinese vassal for a better standard of living, others that are Pan-Europeans, others who perceive voting leave as a racist act.

The remainers both have stated the UK will basically implode outside of the EU and have little to say about what the future of the EU will be - there have already been a series of steps for control to be centralised over the last years. Invariably treaties that require no need for the populace to vote. Double checking research on an economic future... guesses of people who already have their own view - when have economic forecasts ever been wrong??!?

But there is indisputably a Remain manifesto, that being the reality of the EU we live in. What is the Leave manifesto? What promises should the Leave campaign be held to? Or are you also of the opinion that the Leave campaign's promises should not be seen as a manifesto that the winning party is held to by the opposition? If you want to hold the losing party's promises up for examination, but ignore the winning party's promises, may I ask, who gets to put their ideas into action?

[rory_20_uk]

But there is indisputably a Remain manifesto, that being the reality of the EU we live in. What is the Leave manifesto? What promises should the Leave campaign be held to? Or are you also of the opinion that the Leave campaign's promises should not be seen as a manifesto that the winning party is held to by the opposition? If you want to hold the losing party's promises up for examination, but ignore the winning party's promises, may I ask, who gets to put their ideas into action?

If you're asking me to defend any facet of the current democratic process I'm afraid I can't. For me personally the main facet is regarding the loss of sovereignty and from that perspective leaving was quite simple and most of the drivel the campaign spouted on either side was irrelevant to me. Leaving repatriates powers to the UK and the UK courts.

When exactly did a politician follow what their manifesto lays out? I didn't expect that either campaign would be any more honest than they are in any other campaign.

[Fragony]

You've done this a few times now, and it's a really weird way of not really saying anything.
It's hard to say though how a referendum would go. Beskar seems to think that a lot more would vote remain, but perhaps he underestimates how many might blame and want to "punish"/leave even more the EU for not kissing Britain's arse, falling over backwards and giving it everything it wants for nothing in return. It doesn't have to be logical for people to want it...

What's so hard about it I see the EU as a hostile takeover of nation-states. I am not alone in thaf the former eastblock that used to live under Soviet rule are becomming really suspicious

[Pannonian]

If you're asking me to defend any facet of the current democratic process I'm afraid I can't. For me personally the main facet is regarding the loss of sovereignty and from that perspective leaving was quite simple and most of the drivel the campaign spouted on either side was irrelevant to me. Leaving repatriates powers to the UK and the UK courts.

When exactly did a politician follow what their manifesto lays out? I didn't expect that either campaign would be any more honest than they are in any other campaign.

If you want to talk about sovereignty and how it's important, then you should at least understand that in the British governmental system, there is HM government and HM opposition that seeks to hold the government to its promises.

[rory_20_uk]

If you want to talk about sovereignty and how it's important, then you should at least understand that in the British governmental system, there is HM government and HM opposition that seeks to hold the government to its promises.

You might like to have a look at the flaws in first past the post system of democracies if you truly believe that is a particularly insightful comment.