Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Speaking of Serbia...

Kosovo Serb leader Oliver Ivanovic assassinated in broad daylight

Speaking of Serbia ruling the world, should we retain "Balkan powder keg" in our vocabulary?

I always thought "Einige verdammt dumme Sache auf dem Balkan" was the best quotation on the regions propensity for causing trouble.

[Sarmatian]

I always thought "Einige verdammt dumme Sache auf dem Balkan" was the best quotation on the regions propensity for causing trouble.

I also like that quote, it's just that I don't see the "region's propensity for causing trouble" as the issue, but rather everyone else's involvement in the region.

You have conflicts, wars and assassinations in all parts of the world all the time, that is not unique to Balkans. What is unique is that there is quite a few powerful countries and their overlapping interests. They are constantly try to increase their own influence at the expense of one another.

Case in point, the name dispute. It is pretty clear that US are pressuring Greece and Macedonia now to resolve the dispute so that Macedonia can enter NATO under current government. And I won't be surprised if the name Greece accepts now is the name they rejected in the past.

Concerning the murder, still hard to say what happened. It was most probably committed by Albanians, but not yet unclear whether it was ordered by the clique in charge. A fairly high degree of possibility, though.

[Strike For The South]

Croatia>Serbia>Greece>Macedonia>Kososvo>Bosnia>Hertzogovina>Albania.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I also like that quote, it's just that I don't see the "region's propensity for causing trouble" as the issue, but rather everyone else's involvement in the region....

A fair point that. The propensity for trouble is NOT entirely home-grown.

[spmetla]

You have conflicts, wars and assassinations in all parts of the world all the time, that is not unique to Balkans. What is unique is that there is quite a few powerful countries and their overlapping interests. They are constantly try to increase their own influence at the expense of one another.

Case in point, the name dispute. It is pretty clear that US are pressuring Greece and Macedonia now to resolve the dispute so that Macedonia can enter NATO under current government. And I won't be surprised if the name Greece accepts now is the name they rejected in the past.

Greece will probably accept the name they've rejected, Macedonia will probably not try to change their flag back to the original one they wanted and then it'll likely join NATO.

Makes me wonder though if all the Balkans are part of NATO if that'll lead to the occasional war and war through proxies that have been allowed between NATO allies such as Greece and Turkey both over the Aegean islands and in Cyprus.

As a Serbian, is NATO still hated there? I know that it participated with NATO exercises but understandably keeps it's close ties with Russia. Would Serbia joining NATO be something you could imagine happening?
I imagine with the war in relatively recent memory that it still guides policy there. Has the stream of migrants through Serbia caused any problems?
I know on some more extreme forums I've seen Serbian posters essentially see the migrants as a fitting punishment for the 'West' after allowing the albanian/kosovars to separate from Serbia.

How about EU accession? I know that Serbia is a candidate for membership and that negotiations have been ongoing for years, is this a popular initative given the Brexit, Greek financial crisis, migrant crisis, and chill caused by the proxy war in Ukraine?

A fair point that. The propensity for trouble is NOT entirely home-grown.

Every one of the Balkan wars had Great Power meddling behind them. All the wars up to and including WW1 being over what was acceptable for the balance of power their via the Austro-Hungarian and Russian proxies.
Cold War had a technically neutral Yugoslavia, a PRC Chinese backed Albania, NATO supported Greece and Turkey, pro-soviet Warsaw pact Bulgaria and Romania and questioningly loyal to the Warsaw pact Hungary.

[Fragony]

The first Balkan wars aren't that easily tracked to foreign meddling, WW1 is though. Everybody is still unsure about it though, no easy answers

[spmetla]

It was partly as a reaction to the aspiring Italian Great Power's war with the Ottomans over modern day Libya. Also it was a Serbian reaction to Austria's annexation of Bosnia which together with his overthrow of the pro-Hapsburg King a decade earlier drove him into the Russian camp and expansion to the south.
Could also say it was caused by all the unhappy Balkan (especially Bulgaria) nations following the Russo-Turkish War which was not given the full territory it wanted due to British and Austro-Hungarian opposition to any new large power in the Balkans that could oppose it's policies in Transylvania and future Yugoslavia.
The Congress of Berlin left everyone in the region unhappy and allowed the tensions and latent nationalism to simmer then boil over resulting in the Balkan Wars and WW1.

[Fragony]

It was partly as a reaction to the aspiring Italian Great Power's war with the Ottomans over modern day Libya. Also it was a Serbian reaction to Austria's annexation of Bosnia which together with his overthrow of the pro-Hapsburg King a decade earlier drove him into the Russian camp and expansion to the south.
Could also say it was caused by all the unhappy Balkan (especially Bulgaria) nations following the Russo-Turkish War which was not given the full territory it wanted due to British and Austro-Hungarian opposition to any new large power in the Balkans that could oppose it's policies in Transylvania and future Yugoslavia.
The Congress of Berlin left everyone in the region unhappy and allowed the tensions and latent nationalism to simmer then boil over resulting in the Balkan Wars and WW1.

There are so many theories and there is something wrong with all of them. There was so much going on all over the place. The greater sebia with Russian backing seems the plausable to but I can't know. I wouldn't burn my hands on the Balkan wars and WW1 and be factual about it

[spmetla]

Fair enough, I can't pretend to *know* for sure. Can only assume based of what was written then and what happened after, hindsight and all that.

[Sarmatian]

As a Serbian, is NATO still hated there? I know that it participated with NATO exercises but understandably keeps it's close ties with Russia. Would Serbia joining NATO be something you could imagine happening?

Hatred is maybe too strong a word for most. Resentment, dislike, distrust would probably be better descriptions. Most people, at least in the north do accept that we have to cooperate with NATO in certain areas. I mean, at this point, we have a lot in common with the Gaul village from Asterix - a small country surrounded by NATO bases. We just lack the magic potion.

I don't see Serbia joining NATO, bar some huge geopolitical changes, for at least next 20 years. It the referendum was tomorrow, I could easily a resounding NO victory easily, probably around 75%, maybe more.

I imagine with the war in relatively recent memory that it still guides policy there. Has the stream of migrants through Serbia caused any problems?

Well, my opinion is that stream of migrants didn't cause real problems anywhere, at least any more than could be expected from a tired, hungry and scared group of people.

I know on some more extreme forums I've seen Serbian posters essentially see the migrants as a fitting punishment for the 'West' after allowing the albanian/kosovars to separate from Serbia.

Yeah, a lot of Serbs are idiots. In this case, because one had nothing to do with the other.

All wars in the nineties were nationalistic. Had absolutely nothing to do with religion. Religion was just a way to point out "look, they're different than us because they pray to a different God". How would you separate Bosnians otherwise? They talk the same, the look the same, and until the war, they all shared similar level of disdain for organized religion. A lot of those idiots defending their "true faith" on all sides were bestest communists a few years before.

How about EU accession? I know that Serbia is a candidate for membership and that negotiations have been ongoing for years, is this a popular initative given the Brexit, Greek financial crisis, migrant crisis, and chill caused by the proxy war in Ukraine?

Well, this is a tough one. The polls show less than 50% in favor of joining consistently for the last several years (was over 70% in the early 00's). Yet all major political parties push for it and are usually mentioning it as the most important foreign policy goal. So, with basically no organized opposition, a coordinated campaign from all major political parties would easily raise it over 50% in the span of a few months.

[Greyblades]

I wonder what the ancient athenians and spartans would think to hear that 2500 years later the nation claiming thier heritage is getting worked up over who has rights to the name macedon.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I wonder what the ancient athenians and spartans would think to hear that 2500 years later the nation claiming thier heritage is getting worked up over who has rights to the name macedon.

Weren't they a Persian satrapy by that point? Or am I off a few years?

[Montmorency]

Ancient cultures could relate to the preoccupation with name and title, and the prestige and legitimacy these confer.

[Greyblades]

True but I was actually referring to the general disdane the southern citie states held the macedonians in the runup to alexander.