Trump Thread

[Husar]

I'm also on the waiting list. I've said before that I'm not sure about what Kim wants. People focus on him murdering family members, but we don't know much about the kind of people these family members were and why exactly they were executed. IIRC his uncle was a major figure in the army, so hardly a saint.

I'm going to lean way out the window now, but there is the saying that evil triumphs when good people do nothing and maybe, just maybe, sometimes good people need to murder very bad people to prevent even more bloodshed in the future. If you disagree, then please jail the entire US Army and especially the guys who shot Osama bin Laden.

Obviously I'm just guessing that Kim may not be all that bad after all, but he can also be both good and bad, or the most lenient leader North Korea has to offer without mass-murdering almost everyone there and starting "fresh".

Remember this, it's not like he can just "go good" from one day to another in the regime his fathers set up:

[Montmorency]

Can't we assume that the first and highest priority of any dictator is self-preservation? Or is Kim the protagonist of a shounen anime?

[Husar]

Can't we assume that the first and highest priority of any dictator is self-preservation? Or is Kim the protagonist of a shounen anime?

That's my point exactly, I see quite a few people who seem to think he should have opposed his entire military and the established elite of his country on day one and declared a democracy. I don't think he would have survived that...
While I may not believe that he wants a democracy, it also doesn't mean that he wants the country to stay exactly the way it is as many people seem to assume. We probably don't even know whether he likes to murder people or does it for pure self-preservation.

The point being that maybe he isn't quite the mad dictator at heart, but has to play him because his only other option so far was a body bag...

Or to go even further, maybe the factor that made North Korea come to the table was not just other presidents, but also their new leader. I'm aware I'm just theorizing, but there were some rumors for a while about him wanting reforms in several areas and to open up the country more.

[Montmorency]

There's no need to personalize this. Of course Kim wants to develop his country. So did his father, and so would almost anyone else in his position. It would make his reign more secure, at least for a while. The one thing preventing this is international sanctions.

[Husar]

There's no need to personalize this. Of course Kim wants to develop his country. So did his father, and so would almost anyone else in his position. It would make his reign more secure, at least for a while. The one thing preventing this is international sanctions.

Then why does the country ban citizens from using the internet even if they can? They're actively hunting people with internet-capable mobile phones from China. Doesn't sound like a "wants to develop the country" and neither does the whole narrative that anyone from outside is an enemy. It would be weird if his father wanted the country to open up but actually sealed it off from the outside in practice. I don't think it's just the sanctions. The point of sealing off was likely to get full control over the information that circulates inside. It seems possible that KJU wants to change that to some extent, very slowly.
And why not personalize this? Dictators aren't one-dimensional people, or are they?

Gilrandir, no, not really.

[Montmorency]

Then why does the country ban citizens from using the internet even if they can? They're actively hunting people with internet-capable mobile phones from China. Doesn't sound like a "wants to develop the country" and neither does the whole narrative that anyone from outside is an enemy. It would be weird if his father wanted the country to open up but actually sealed it off from the outside in practice. I don't think it's just the sanctions. The point of sealing off was likely to get full control over the information that circulates inside. It seems possible that KJU wants to change that to some extent, very slowly.
And why not personalize this? Dictators aren't one-dimensional people, or are they?

Gilrandir, no, not really.

Yes, it isn't surprising that the government would prefer to control media access. So do Russia and China (!!!!). The job is just narrower and simpler for now in North Korea. If North Korea can't open on its own terms, then the regime can't guarantee its own continued existence; they're not interested in experiencing 19th-century style economic "diplomacy".Would be pretty silly to abandon this small advantage and subsidize Internet and media access while violence and starvation are rampant, like if Gorbachev had declared in 1985 that each SSR could be as autonomous as they wished.

But ROK and Western media have become pervasive in North Korea for years. The government is well aware of the phenomenon, and permits the privileged, wealthy and powerful to 'indulge' with relatively few restrictions, whereas commoners with USBs or DVDs will be arbitrarily cracked down on to inspire terror. Remember, dictators don't make people clap for a long time (simply) because they like to be applauded, it's one of many interlocking mechanisms of control. One of the most effective means of control is to condition people into imposing self-control.

And the country was not sealed off; remember the Axis of Evil? Here's an overview of EU sanctions over time, which in recent years have escalated to include total investment bans. It was indeed sealed in, except to China and Russia. (I think in one of the articles linked in the thread, it was mentioned that 90% of DPRK trade is with China; we all know by now of the North Korean labor camps in Siberia.) And surprisingly, certain EU governments and organizations.

[Husar]

And the country was not sealed off; remember the Axis of Evil? Here's an overview of EU sanctions over time, which in recent years have escalated to include total investment bans. It was indeed sealed in, except to China and Russia.

So how many North Korean tourists are currently officially vacationing in China and Russia?

[Gilrandir]

I'm going to lean way out the window now, but there is the saying that evil triumphs TRUMPS when good people do nothing and maybe, just maybe, sometimes good people need to murder very bad people to prevent even more bloodshed in the future.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...tireless-work/
Did you mean that?