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  1. #1

    Default Re: Science and Totalitarianism

    Mainland China never experienced a democracy. And with a significant percentage of the population raised out of the poverty level, this is an actual improvement to their living standards. And the Chinese cities developed way beyond the point that the Chinese ever dreamed of before. I've talked with several people from China. Some of them I met since the mid-1990s. They said that they supported their government because of the improvement in the economy. China used to be a country that experienced famines during the Cold War due to Mao's errors. The current leader, Xi Jinping, gained popularity with his anti-corruption campaign. Corruption drags the living standards and the rights of the average people down. There are examples in other countries, which the Chinese are well-aware of. And with people unable to express their doubts due to censorship and the fear of punishment, they'll think it's better just to conform to the government. Thus, it gets harder to spread the ideas in improving human rights.

    This doesn't mean that all of them blindly support their government. Some of the Chinese express their doubts on the Chinese government when they're outside the country or in China privately where the government can't hear them. I know a few Chinese who used to support Xi Jinping until he took away the term limit. I think that if the slowing down of the economy gets worse, people will become more expressive on their disapproval.

    North Korea is a country that never experienced a democracy, nor did they ever experience a fully opened economy. Currently, their main economy is the black market. Prior to the North Korean regime, Korea was under foreign occupation. And before that, Korea was run by a monarchy. The North Korean defectors have said that this was one of the reasons why it was hard to get the people to overthrow the North Korean regime. It would be harder for a totalitarian government to keep control if the people experienced a democracy for a significant amount of time (unless invaded and occupied by a stronger totalitarian country).
    Last edited by Shaka_Khan; 01-15-2019 at 09:51.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Science and Totalitarianism

    One thing to remember about China is that it is wracked by protests throughout the country, daily, and has long been so (Economist: "Why protests are so common in China"). The thing is, these protests are not like the Yellow Jackets in France or Occupy Wall Street, whose byword are/were basically " the system". If millions of people started marching through China's public spaces demanding wholesale (if underspecified) social and governmental change, that would give the Party deja vu of Tiananmen Square...

    Rather, Chinese protests are generally "issue" protests, such as unmet government commitments, urban migrant permitting rights, HIV patient rights, Falun Gong rights, Tibetan rights, industrial-sector labor unrest... the important thing is that these protests are limited in scope, intend to "work within the system", and are largely non-political. That suits the leadership just fine, or at least relatively fine given the baseline social stress.

    Divide and conquer and all that.

    FWIW
    Last edited by Montmorency; 01-15-2019 at 08:43.
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  3. #3
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science and Totalitarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan View Post
    Mainland China never experienced a democracy. And with a significant percentage of the population raised out of the poverty level, this is an actual improvement to their living standards. And the Chinese cities developed way beyond the point that the Chinese ever dreamed of before. I've talked with several people from China. Some of them I met since the mid-1990s. They said that they supported their government because of the improvement in the economy. China used to be a country that experienced famines during the Cold War due to Mao's errors. The current leader, Xi Jinping, gained popularity with his anti-corruption campaign. Corruption drags the living standards and the rights of the average people down. There are examples in other countries, which the Chinese are well-aware of. And with people unable to express their doubts due to censorship and the fear of punishment, they'll think it's better just to conform to the government. Thus, it gets harder to spread the ideas in improving human rights.

    This doesn't mean that all of them blindly support their government. Some of the Chinese express their doubts on the Chinese government when they're outside the country or in China privately where the government can't hear them. I know a few Chinese who used to support Xi Jinping until he took away the term limit. I think that if the slowing down of the economy gets worse, people will become more expressive on their disapproval.

    North Korea is a country that never experienced a democracy, nor did they ever experience a fully opened economy. Currently, their main economy is the black market. Prior to the North Korean regime, Korea was under foreign occupation. And before that, Korea was run by a monarchy. The North Korean defectors have said that this was one of the reasons why it was hard to get the people to overthrow the North Korean regime. It would be harder for a totalitarian government to keep control if the people experienced a democracy for a significant amount of time (unless invaded and occupied by a stronger totalitarian country).
    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    One thing to remember about China is that it is wracked by protests throughout the country, daily, and has long been so (Economist: "Why protests are so common in China"). The thing is, these protests are not like the Yellow Jackets in France or Occupy Wall Street, whose byword are/were basically " the system". If millions of people started marching through China's public spaces demanding wholesale (if underspecified) social and governmental change, that would give the Party deja vu of Tiananmen Square...

    Rather, Chinese protests are generally "issue" protests, such as unmet government commitments, urban migrant permitting rights, HIV patient rights, Falun Gong rights, Tibetan rights, industrial-sector labor unrest... the important thing is that these protests are limited in scope, intend to "work within the system", and are largely non-political. That suits the leadership just fine, or at least relatively fine given the baseline social stress.

    Divide and conquer and all that.

    FWIW
    And this all bears on science because....
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Science and Totalitarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    And this all bears on science because....
    This topic isn't just about science. It's about whether science can affect a totalitarian country. It's wondering whether science can bring democracy or not. I'm saying that science alone can't change a totalitarian country. There are other factors.

    Speaking of China, the relationship between Canada and China is getting more and more tense.



    China released a Canadian teacher for allegedly working there illegally:



    China is Canada's second largest national two-way trade partner after the United States.
    Last edited by Shaka_Khan; 01-15-2019 at 12:04.
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    Default Re: Science and Totalitarianism

    The Soviet Union was not overthrown by science, good or bad; from the renaissance to very recently almost all countries at best had extremely limited democracy with a minute fraction of wealthy men voting. Science didn't have any issue with that.

    Some scientists even tried to use the "scientific method" to prove other races are lesser or sub-human. Others were more than happy to use science to devise weapons to kill and mutilate people whose only difference was being directed to fight by a different leader.

    Last edited by rory_20_uk; 01-16-2019 at 18:41. Reason: racists/races
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science and Totalitarianism

    I mean, what is science being "taught right"? All that comes to mind to me is the new atheism movement and its thinly veiled Islamophboia, or the techbros who wish to harken back to some soviet style Technocracy.

    Human beings are more than data and results. I've got my eye on science.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Science and Totalitarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I mean, what is science being "taught right"? All that comes to mind to me is the new atheism movement and its thinly veiled Islamophboia, or the techbros who wish to harken back to some soviet style Technocracy.

    Human beings are more than data and results. I've got my eye on science.
    Poor phrasing on my part. I think the gist of what I have read entails a science curriculum that more emphasizes values such as intellectual honesty, deliberation, and patience, in addition to the fundamental knowledge that students are expected to learn.
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 01-17-2019 at 05:21.


  8. #8
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science and Totalitarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The Soviet Union was not overthrown by science, good or bad; from the renaissance to very recently almost all countries at best had extremely limited democracy with a minute fraction of wealthy men voting. Science didn't have any issue with that.

    Some scientists even tried to use the "scientific method" to prove other racists are lesser or sub-human...
    I am pretty sure you meant 'races' and not 'racists.' Racists have volunteered proof about themselves having deficiencies in their thinking.


    And yes, the Eugenics science was ultimately quite racist. Proving differences between human phenotypes is easy, but nobody has proved any difference in essential nature.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  9. #9

    Default Re: Science and Totalitarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The Soviet Union was not overthrown by science, good or bad
    Planned economy failed due to bad economics?


  10. #10
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science and Totalitarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The Soviet Union was not overthrown by science
    Economics can be seen as a type of applied science, in which case it most certainly was.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science and Totalitarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    Economics can be seen as a type of applied science, in which case it most certainly was.
    No, it collapsed as its economy imploded, not that economists took up arms and overthrew it. Economists spouted the Party message for the entire existence of the USSR.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  12. #12
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Science and Totalitarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    And this all bears on science because....
    Because science is too idealistically labeled as "a-political."

    Science for the sake of science is the 'dream' of quite a few idealists, but it seldom happens. Life intrudes with deadlines, funding issues, etc. Hence, politics.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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