Transsexual Toilet Trouble

[Montmorency]

If women are required to cover their breasts in public is is for nursing mothers to explain why they are the exception. Your argument is affective, not logical.

Assuming there is a legal requirement for women to cover their breasts in general, the argument on behalf of nursing mothers is that they are performing a necessary and routine bodily function and that the harm caused by refusing them accommodation is greater than the harm caused by allowing them accommodation. Meanwhile, what's the argument against - invocation of "public decency?" I don't think this is colorable in terms of "affective vs. logical."

What people do in public spaces is a matter for the general public. In exactly the same way as we do not allow people to run around naked because the general public consider this to be unacceptbale we also do not generally allow women to be topless.

What if they consider it to be acceptable? I mean, you are aware you've lost the legal and social debate by now, right? So unless you feel really strongly about the issue and want to relitigate it to the point of having the inverse of French-style burqa police, it's probably not worth your energy (nb. if the latter is your real aim it would be reprehensible).

It follows logically that no matter how natural breastfeeding may be, and accepting the right that women should be allowed to do it in public it does NOT follow that women should be allowed to do it visibly topless.

The motivation is not the naturalness of breastfeeding but the legal principle of not imposing undue burdens.

The counter argument is literally just "patriarchal repression" but the same people who make this argument do not argue that women should generally be allowed to be topless in public, interestingly enough.

What's wrong with opposing "patriarchal repression?"

I've frequently seen the two arguments paired, idk what you mean. And haven't you heard of all the topless parades and protests in America and throughout Europe (no links)?

Most of the reported cases involve the woman complaining to someone's (usually a man's) employer because he asked her to cover up, not go to a separate room, just cover up.

Here's a short comment on the state of American law on breastfeeding (though it only discusses state, not federal, law).

I hope we can get to the point where no one feels the need to complain about it, or that complaints are ignored.

Perhaps - but then I've never actually seen it in public myself, that is without some sort of shawl or something.

You've never actually seen it in public, but it's such a big deal for you?

I'll reply to the rest of the post later, I just want to post some stuff about breastfeeding.


First, since you're a stuffy old chap and not a breastfeeding woman let's go direct to the source and see what nursing mothers are saying. To that end I turn to Mumsnet, the UK's pre-eminent forum for... mums.

And some photos:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For the piece de resistance:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Assuming there is a legal requirement for women to cover their breasts in general, the argument on behalf of nursing mothers is that they are performing a necessary and routine bodily function and that the harm caused by refusing them accommodation is greater than the harm caused by allowing them accommodation. Meanwhile, what's the argument against - invocation of "public decency?" I don't think this is colorable in terms of "affective vs. logical."

What if they consider it to be acceptable? I mean, you are aware you've lost the legal and social debate by now, right? So unless you feel really strongly about the issue and want to relitigate it to the point of having the inverse of French-style burqa police, it's probably not worth your energy (nb. if the latter is your real aim it would be reprehensible).

The motivation is not the naturalness of breastfeeding but the legal principle of not imposing undue burdens.

What's wrong with opposing "patriarchal repression?"

I've frequently seen the two arguments paired, idk what you mean. And haven't you heard of all the topless parades and protests in America and throughout Europe (no links)?

Here's a short comment on the state of American law on breastfeeding (though it only discusses state, not federal, law).

I hope we can get to the point where no one feels the need to complain about it, or that complaints are ignored.

You've never actually seen it in public, but it's such a big deal for you?

I'll reply to the rest of the post later, I just want to post some stuff about breastfeeding.

First, since you're a stuffy old chap and not a breastfeeding woman let's go direct to the source and see what nursing mothers are saying. To that end I turn to Mumsnet, the UK's pre-eminent forum for... mums.

And some photos:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For the piece de resistance:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I've lost the legal and social debate, hmm?

It's the same debate as the one that has Republicans deciding it's OK to gerrymander their districts to prevent Democrats ever getting elected. The same debate that says someone can force other people to agree to their minority view of gender. It's also the same debate that has people electing Trump and not caring about his personal behaviour. The same debate that has the members of the Labour Party ignoring the Antisemitism of their leader because he's a good Socialist.

This isn't about practicalities, it's about individuals being seen to exercise their personal autonomy, even at the expense of others. Ultimate individual expression, disregarding the collective. So, it's essential for the nursing mother to be able to be SEEN to be nursing, even if she offends parents with older children. Her individual right to display her literaly "naked truth" trumps any concerns anyone else might have about her behaviour.

As opposed to her wearing a shall, or even a towel (not a practical hindrance) so that she isn't visibly topless.

This is just one element of a social outlook which gives paramount concern to the autonomy of each individual, rather than considering the welfare of society in general. Another is electing Thump, or gerrymandering Districts.

[Montmorency]

I've lost the legal and social debate, hmm?

It's the same debate as the one that has Republicans deciding it's OK to gerrymander their districts to prevent Democrats ever getting elected. The same debate that says someone can force other people to agree to their minority view of gender. It's also the same debate that has people electing Trump and not caring about his personal behaviour. The same debate that has the members of the Labour Party ignoring the Antisemitism of their leader because he's a good Socialist.

This isn't about practicalities, it's about individuals being seen to exercise their personal autonomy, even at the expense of others. Ultimate individual expression, disregarding the collective. So, it's essential for the nursing mother to be able to be SEEN to be nursing, even if she offends parents with older children. Her individual right to display her literaly "naked truth" trumps any concerns anyone else might have about her behaviour.

Wew lad. Totally off the mark in your comparisons (which gather very unlike items that represent the opposite dynamic in your construction of individual vs. collective than you would seem to intend), and self-centered in your framing of the issues involved in public breastfeeding.

'Breastfeeding women are flaunting their individuality over our collective good as represented by some random offended individual' is a position that's only tenable if you disregard the practicalities of breastfeeding mothers - which you refuse to even entertain - and conflate your individual preferences for mass political preferences.

I say you've already lost the debate precisely because most people do not agree with you that women exposing their breasts in public to breastfeed impinges on any collective good. Moreover, even if there were a majority or plurality who shared your position that wouldn't make it intrinsically right; the boundaries of the collective good are constantly being contested, especially now. You're just making a countervailing push, which I think is wrong because I oppose reaction.

Do you have any reaction to the photos I posted?