The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Democrats certainly aren't rofl.

You don't think Elizabeth Warren's claims of native American ancestry are shameless, populist pandering?

[Montmorency]

You don't think Elizabeth Warren's claims of native American ancestry are shameless, populist pandering?

I hope in the future you will refrain from commenting on a matter without informing yourself first, as your question is ridiculous in every conceivable facet.

Warren has thought of herself as having Native ancestry since childhood, in a state (Oklahoma) where perhaps a majority of white people would attest to such ancestry.

Warren didn't affirmatively advance any claim about herself as Native American to the public, Donald Trump did - in a derogatory fashion. She reacted to it (naively clearly) by demonstrating the accuracy of her family stories.

There are fewer Native Americans in the United States than there are Jews. Elizabeth Warren acknowledges that she is not a Native American, nor do Natives see her as one. I struggle to imagine how even a calculated claim of such ancestry could begin to be "populist pandering" in theory.

Even in a scenario where Warren had fabricated an identity as having Native ancestry for the purpose of this election, and doing so was thought to be electorally advantageous among Democratic constituencies, it should be obviously inappropriate to frame it in context with, among other things, violent rhetoric and the corrupt subversion of governmental and civil institutions.

That was a seriously dogshit post Phil.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I hope in the future you will refrain from commenting on a matter without informing yourself first, as your question is ridiculous in every conceivable facet.

Warren has thought of herself as having Native ancestry since childhood, in a state (Oklahoma) where perhaps a majority of white people would attest to such ancestry.

Warren didn't affirmatively advance any claim about herself as Native American to the public, Donald Trump did - in a derogatory fashion. She reacted to it (naively clearly) by demonstrating the accuracy of her family stories.

There are fewer Native Americans in the United States than there are Jews. Elizabeth Warren acknowledges that she is not a Native American, nor do Natives see her as one. I struggle to imagine how even a calculated claim of such ancestry could begin to be "populist pandering" in theory.

Even in a scenario where Warren had fabricated an identity as having Native ancestry for the purpose of this election, and doing so was thought to be electorally advantageous among Democratic constituencies, it should be obviously inappropriate to frame it in context with, among other things, violent rhetoric and the corrupt subversion of governmental and civil institutions.

That was a seriously dogshit post Phil.

Really?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/warren-...gh-cheekbones/

https://www.boston.com/news/politics...rican-heritage

Warren self-identified as Native-American whilst working as a legal scholar and after being hired at Harvard. These articles are from 2012-13 when she was running for the Senate, before Donald Trump even entered politics.

"No, as I said, these are my family stories. I have lived in a family that has talked about Native Americans, talked about tribes since I had been a little girl," she said. "I still have a picture on my mantel and it is a picture my mother had before that - a picture of my grandfather. And my Aunt Bea has walked by that picture at least a 1,000 times remarked that he - her father, my Papaw -- had high cheek bones like all of the Indians do. Because that is how she saw it and your mother got those same great cheek bones and I didn't. She that thought was the bad deal she had gotten in life."


"Being Native American has been part of my story, I guess, since the day I was born," Warren continued.

Yes, Trump then mocked her for these claims and when she ultimately took a DNA test there was little physical basis for them. At the end of the day it's rather like me identifying as Welsh based on my grandmother's ancestry, though she actually bore the giveaway name Lloyd.

I'm sorry, but if it's not deliberate pandering then it feels like naive Liberal wish-fulfilment. This is not something she just idly claimed - she had it on her professional resume and deliberately presented herself as Native American in public life.

I see no reason why we can be ultra-Cynical about the likes of Trump, Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn but not Elizabeth Warren.

Absolute best-case explanation is a woeful lack of judgement that makes her unfit for high public office.

[Montmorency]

Really?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/warren-...gh-cheekbones/

https://www.boston.com/news/politics...rican-heritage

Warren self-identified as Native-American whilst working as a legal scholar and after being hired at Harvard. These articles are from 2012-13 when she was running for the Senate, before Donald Trump even entered politics.

"No, as I said, these are my family stories. I have lived in a family that has talked about Native Americans, talked about tribes since I had been a little girl," she said. "I still have a picture on my mantel and it is a picture my mother had before that - a picture of my grandfather. And my Aunt Bea has walked by that picture at least a 1,000 times remarked that he - her father, my Papaw -- had high cheek bones like all of the Indians do. Because that is how she saw it and your mother got those same great cheek bones and I didn't. She that thought was the bad deal she had gotten in life."


"Being Native American has been part of my story, I guess, since the day I was born," Warren continued.

Yes, Trump then mocked her for these claims and when she ultimately took a DNA test there was little physical basis for them. At the end of the day it's rather like me identifying as Welsh based on my grandmother's ancestry, though she actually bore the giveaway name Lloyd.

I'm sorry, but if it's not deliberate pandering then it feels like naive Liberal wish-fulfilment. This is not something she just idly claimed - she had it on her professional resume and deliberately presented herself as Native American in public life.

I see no reason why we can be ultra-Cynical about the likes of Trump, Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn but not Elizabeth Warren.

Absolute best-case explanation is a woeful lack of judgement that makes her unfit for high public office.

This is a caliber of stupidity approaching insolence. She never presented herself as Native American in public life. She talked about her family history. The DNA test corroborated the family history. The lack of judgement was in thinking her right-wing critics were concerned with that substance for its own sake.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This is a caliber of stupidity approaching insolence. She never presented herself as Native American in public life. She talked about her family history. The DNA test corroborated the family history. The lack of judgement was in thinking her right-wing critics were concerned with that substance for its own sake.

She chose to list herself as "Native American", not "white" or "Mixed White and Native American".

She chose consciously to present herself, within her profession, as unambiguously native American.

This also has very little to do with Trump, as opposed to the Birther conspiracy which WAS supported early by Trump.

When she was confronted she initially doubled down.

If you think I'm wrong why has she now apologised? It's because she committed the cardinal Liberal sin of claiming an ethnic identity she was not, in their view, entitled to.

[Montmorency]

She chose to list herself as "Native American", not "white" or "Mixed White and Native American".

She chose consciously to present herself, within her profession, as unambiguously native American.

This also has very little to do with Trump, as opposed to the Birther conspiracy which WAS supported early by Trump.

When she was confronted she initially doubled down.

If you think I'm wrong why has she now apologised? It's because she committed the cardinal Liberal sin of claiming an ethnic identity she was not, in their view, entitled to.

A supportable Oklahoman (a focal point for white-Native admixture) family legend had her self-identifying as a Native American in 1980s and 90s, in a time where this was a very prominent trend in America. Native groups complained over the 2018 events because the dispute was not politically relevant and could contribute to misconceptions about what constitutes Native affiliation. As Warren said this year, "I am not a person of color; I am not a citizen of a tribe. Tribal citizenship is very different from ancestry. Tribes, and only tribes, determine tribal citizenship, and I respect that difference." So what's the story?

We can talk about how her response to Trump was in bad judgement, but your characterization of it is plain silly and shows rather worse judgement on your part.

[rory_20_uk]

She chose to list herself as "Native American", not "white" or "Mixed White and Native American".

She chose consciously to present herself, within her profession, as unambiguously native American.

This also has very little to do with Trump, as opposed to the Birther conspiracy which WAS supported early by Trump.

When she was confronted she initially doubled down.

If you think I'm wrong why has she now apologised? It's because she committed the cardinal Liberal sin of claiming an ethnic identity she was not, in their view, entitled to.

In a perfect world, politicians would be perfect and would not say or do such stupid things. Of the imperfect world we live in, she seems to be on balance the best of the bunch on offer.

This comment is at best foolish - although she is no fool - and isn't really defensible. But if this is the worst thing she has recently done, well, I'll accept that.

[Montmorency]

In a perfect world, politicians would be perfect and would not say or do such stupid things. Of the imperfect world we live in, she seems to be on balance the best of the bunch on offer.

This comment is at best foolish - although she is no fool - and isn't really defensible. But if this is the worst thing she has recently done well, I'll accept that.

What infuriates me about PVC's framing is that it accuses Warren of something she hasn't done while completely ignoring what is in fact bad about what she has done. A real sandwich.

The problem with Warren's handling of this issue is that her pedantic sense of her heritage (and the claim of heritage from specific tribal groups rather than generically) is that its contestation serves no benefit for the electorate, and for it to enter national discourse as a subject of discussion probably only brings negative attention to Native interests. Most Natives don't get to enjoy the benefits of whiteness while also eating the cake of exotic aesthetic, and Warren becoming a de facto representative for them when the subject comes up doesn't contribute to repairing their sovereignty or addressing the many demands of Native groups. The publicity doesn't help with the long-running scams that white Americans have run while fraudulently touting Native membership to gain its benefits and access. Warren's family stories might have more substance than most, but the whole trend of excitement and pride over a marginal (non-cultural) connection to Amerindians is both very American and very White, the latter in its ability to treat the putative association to an oppressed minority as a cute factoid or empowering story without burden (though to be fair it has also been a trend among African Americans to identify distant Native ancestry, for slightly different reasons). It's basically a racist mindset in how it relates to Amerindians and how it conceives of what makes one. The technical accuracy of one of Warren's narrowest ancestral propositions or the accuracy of Republican criticisms of her is nothing at all to be resolved on her terms because it's of purely personal import. This is the political sphere. As a politician she has an especially prominent platform, which is best and most responsibly used when advancing the interests of constituents and the country rather than in validating her self-image. That's why it's been gratifying to see her demonstrate the ability to adapt and to learn from mistakes throughout her campaign this year, those being exactly some of the most important qualities a leader can have.

Whereas PVC comes in here with a propagandistic mindset that sees no dissonance in saying that Warren maintaining her self-image discussing Native ancestry only when prompted to do so by Republican attacks is somehow pandering (without explaining what that could possibly mean in context) and in turn that this testifies to a race to the bottom on Democrats' part is just - the stuff of committed bull artistry and I hold it in contempt.