UK General Election 2019

[rory_20_uk]

And the Tories do it again. Just ahead of the release of the Labour manifesto, they do an attack site titled labourmanifesto.co.uk. Does it matter to Tory voters any more that the party lies and deceives as a matter of course?

It does matter. It is such a shame that all parties could not promise to Leave. Since if that were the case I'd probably vote Lib Dems.

[Greyblades]

It does matter. It is such a shame that all parties could not promise to Leave. Since if that were the case I'd probably vote Lib Dems.

Hm, I think if it was the case I'd not vote at all, what I want is just plain not on offer. I was hopeful that the purge of the wets would turn the conservatives into something worth voting for, but I still see signs they are as intrusively parternalistic as ever.

The closest is what the lib dems should be, sadly the liberal part seems completely subsumed by the social democrat end.

As for lies and deception... they're politicians I dont know a time when they werent all like that.
They should kindly take a running jump with thier "This is beyond the pale, my side would/has never done something like that" faux outrage.

[Pannonian]

Hm, I think if it was the case I'd not vote at all, what I want is just plain not on offer. I was hopeful that the purge of the wets would turn the conservatives into something worth voting for, but I still see signs they are as intrusively parternalistic as ever.

The closest is what the lib dems should be, sadly the liberal part seems completely subsumed by the social democrat end.

As for lies and deception... they're politicians I dont know a time when they werent all like that.
They should kindly take a running jump with thier "This is beyond the pale, my side would/has never done something like that" faux outrage.

Politicians used to deceive by omission. Outright lies were a matter for resignation. See the episode of Yes Prime Minister where Hacker assures the Commons on something that he'd been mistaken about, and worries the whole episode over having to resign if anyone found out. The current PM has a justified reputation for lying every time he opens his mouth, and not just from ignorance, but knowingly repeating confirmed lies. In the UK, this current has only really been in evidence since Brexit (on the Leave side), and taken up since then by the Tory radicals (the ones you want to control the party, since you want rid of the wets).

See Corbyn for an example of the traditional UK politician's way of deceiving, by omission. I dislike him, but he is completely different from Johnson. Johnson is Trump in terms of propensity to plain lie.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

But does Johnson know he's lying?

I posit that query because I suspect -- and this is NOT a happy comment -- that Trump would actually pass a polygraph test when he makes his claims.

[Pannonian]

But does Johnson know he's lying?

I posit that query because I suspect -- and this is NOT a happy comment -- that Trump would actually pass a polygraph test when he makes his claims.

Yes he does. While I wouldn't class him as a political genius (none of the various front benches qualify), he's not stupid, and he repeats stuff that have been confirmed as lies. I think he's more self-aware than Corbyn, and is aware that he's lying, but unlike Corbyn, he doesn't care. His raison d'etre is to be PM for as long as possible, and he follows the instructions of his handlers as he's too lazy to do the work, not as well versed in doctrine as Corbyn to have a ready answer to select areas, and isn't bright enough to improvise a good answer. Any improvised answer is disastrous, so he just repeats stuff that his handlers reckon he can get away with.

Everyone who has worked with Johnson in the past says that lying is his main characteristic. Well, that and laziness, which causes him to lie to turn in the words for which he's paid. A few weeks ago the Telegraph had to settle the aftermath of another of his lying articles. Max Hastings, a former editor of his, is adamant that there are few, if any, worse candidates to be PM in terms of personal qualities. Most of his former colleagues detest him for his (non) working habits. He is loved by the owners of the Telegraph (and the other right wing press) as the ultimate in blank cheques. For as long as Johnson is PM, he will sign whatever they want him to sign, and he is happy to continue doing so for as long as they will keep him in number 10.

Edit: Max Hastings: I was Boris Johnson’s boss: he is utterly unfit to be prime minister

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Politicians used to deceive by omission. Outright lies were a matter for resignation. See the episode of Yes Prime Minister where Hacker assures the Commons on something that he'd been mistaken about, and worries the whole episode over having to resign if anyone found out. The current PM has a justified reputation for lying every time he opens his mouth, and not just from ignorance, but knowingly repeating confirmed lies. In the UK, this current has only really been in evidence since Brexit (on the Leave side), and taken up since then by the Tory radicals (the ones you want to control the party, since you want rid of the wets).

See Corbyn for an example of the traditional UK politician's way of deceiving, by omission. I dislike him, but he is completely different from Johnson. Johnson is Trump in terms of propensity to plain lie.

Corbyn definitely has told outright lies, though. He said during the televised debate that Johnson only got his deal through with the help of the DUP. In reality every member of the DUP voted against it.

[Pannonian]

Corbyn definitely has told outright lies, though. He said during the televised debate that Johnson only got his deal through with the help of the DUP. In reality every member of the DUP voted against it.

TBF, Corbyn is muddled when it comes to Brexit. He could have just as accurately said that the Tories are only in this position to carry out Brexit thanks to his personal support of it. And it does matter a bit just how many lies are told though. IIRC in Johnson's first political broadcast since announcing the election, proper fact checkers (as opposed to Tory HQ twitter) counted at least 6 lies or distortions in a very short speech. I know that a major company in one of the industries that Johnson cited in support of his deal denounced his claim as a lie, and stated that it's safe to assume that anything Boris Johnson says to be untrue.

Boris Johnson ridiculed by British sock makers over claim they are locked out of US market

“My opinion is that if it comes out of Boris Johnson’s mouth it’s likely not to be true, you may quote me on that if it helps,” he said.

[Furunculus]

Let me get this straight:

when corbyn lies he is just muddled.
when he claims the tories want to sell off the nhs he merely mispoke.
when the guardian headline lies about what priti patel actually said it's just, you know, election rhetoric.

but when boris makes a mess of of one lining his as yet unannounced national insurance plans....

“LIES!!! Bring hellfire on ruinination down on all his line unto the 13th generation!”

have i got this right?

[Pannonian]

Let me get this straight:

when corbyn lies he is just muddled.
when he claims the tories want to sell off the nhs he merely mispoke.
when the guardian headline lies about what priti patel actually said it's just, you know, election rhetoric.

but when boris makes a mess of of one lining his as yet unannounced national insurance plans....

“LIES!!! Bring hellfire on ruinination down on all his line unto the 13th generation!”

have i got this right?

Are you trying to get me to defend Corbyn? I've said on many occasions that I think he's an idiot. Go back a few pages to the Labour party thread where I got into disputes with true believers.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

TBF, Corbyn is muddled when it comes to Brexit. He could have just as accurately said that the Tories are only in this position to carry out Brexit thanks to his personal support of it. And it does matter a bit just how many lies are told though. IIRC in Johnson's first political broadcast since announcing the election, proper fact checkers (as opposed to Tory HQ twitter) counted at least 6 lies or distortions in a very short speech. I know that a major company in one of the industries that Johnson cited in support of his deal denounced his claim as a lie, and stated that it's safe to assume that anything Boris Johnson says to be untrue.

Boris Johnson ridiculed by British sock makers over claim they are locked out of US market

You make Corbyn sound senile.

Pretty sure Trump is senile - look how that's working out.

[Pannonian]

You make Corbyn sound senile.

Pretty sure Trump is senile - look how that's working out.

Not senile. Dense. Corbyn's as intellectually competent now as he's ever been, which is not very. One advantage he has over Johnson is that Corbyn is thoroughly well read in areas he believes in, so when a discussion touches on these areas, he has a ready answer, as he's well versed in what doctrine says about it. In contrast, Johnson has his classical education, and he probably has a higher intellectual ceiling than Corbyn, but he's the laziest politician I've ever seen, and he prefers to blag and let his connections take him out of the trouble he's caused.

Neither of them is a good candidate for PM. Johnson is the worse by a wide margin.