UK General Election 2019

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You also gone into how your were born in Devon but is Cornish. You also said about the different boundaries and how parts of the Kingdom(?) of Cornwall lies in Devon, etc etc etc. Though with your last post, sounds like you identify more with Devon?

Not after arguing with you.

1. Born in Devon, family from Hampshire/Surrey and more distantly Wales/Sweden.

2. Parts of the Duchy of Cornwall lie in Devon. Devon and Cornwall collectively made up the Kingdom of Dummonia in the Sub-Roman period. You may also be confused by my, at some point, having said that there were Cornishmen in Devon until the Reformation, which is not to say Cornwall was in Devon. The boundary has been the River Tamar since 936 AD.

3. Anyone who lives in Devon identifies more with Devon than Cornwall and vice versa.

It's all mostly in good fun, until someone starts a punchup.

Honestly - though - if you and Monty are both miss-reading my posts to this degree I need to consider writing in a language other than English because, frankly, you'd apparently do better putting my Latin through Google translate.

Wait - have I suffered a head trauma? Have I spent the last two or three years writing in Latin without realising?

O​.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The clear following question is, "Despite the prospective Conservative PM's unwillingness to face scrutiny?". Ie. does Johnson's refusal to face the toughest of the interviewers, which every other major candidate has submitted to, affect your opinion of his fitness to be PM? Neil has set out a number of questions that he'd like to put to Johnson, which already gives the latter an advantage over the other candidates, who had no prior explicit preparation. Should Johnson answer these questions under Neil's probing?

I think we've all agreed he "should" do the interview - I haven't seen anyone defend him not doing it.

[Pannonian]

I think we've all agreed he "should" do the interview - I haven't seen anyone defend him not doing it.

Furunculus has said that the whole Brexit business should have been the prerogative of the executive, without Parliamentary oversight. Meaning the biggest issue of the election should be without constitutional scrutiny. Neil has said the biggest issue with Johnson is trustworthiness. Should the PM be allowed greater executive power without exposing him to scrutiny? Johnson has shown that he wants more of the former, and he's also shown that he's avoiding the latter as far as he can get away with it.

[Furunculus]

The clear following question is, "Despite the prospective Conservative PM's unwillingness to face scrutiny?". Ie. does Johnson's refusal to face the toughest of the interviewers, which every other major candidate has submitted to, affect your opinion of his fitness to be PM? Neil has set out a number of questions that he'd like to put to Johnson, which already gives the latter an advantage over the other candidates, who had no prior explicit preparation. Should Johnson answer these questions under Neil's probing?

I believe this question has already been answered:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053800043
"Yes, i do think it will reflect badly on him, and he should do it - not least because his opponents went on the show on the understanding that they would all face such a grilling."

[Furunculus]

Furunculus has said that the whole Brexit business should have been the prerogative of the executive, without Parliamentary oversight. Meaning the biggest issue of the election should be without constitutional scrutiny. Neil has said the biggest issue with Johnson is trustworthiness. Should the PM be allowed greater executive power without exposing him to scrutiny? Johnson has shown that he wants more of the former, and he's also shown that he's avoiding the latter as far as he can get away with it.

No, your serial misquoting of me continues:
I did not say brexit should have been the prerogative of the executive as if this was my opinion.
I pointed out that as a constitutional principle conducting relations with foreign powers is a function of the executive.
For the eminently sensible reason that negotiation by committee is universally stupid notion.

[Pannonian]

The UK's Brexit ambassador to the US resigns because she has better things to do than peddle the government's lies about what Brexit involves. Yup, that's the reason she gave.

[Beskar]

I got to admit when I was voting the other day, I was looking at the slip and I was like "I don't want to vote for any of you". I wish I was in a constitutionality with half-decent choices, like my neighbouring ones who happened to attract the talent.

The incumbent is a blue Labour who lives 300 miles away and primary the reason I have never voted Labour in a general election.

[edyzmedieval]

As things stand, looking through various news sources, the Conservatives will easily win a majority and Brexit will be delivered most probably in the beginning of next year. However, I've seen a lot of surprises with Brexit in the past 3 years - so I'll wait and see until the government is formed.

[Beskar]

The songs are now coming out.

[Pannonian]

As things stand, looking through various news sources, the Conservatives will easily win a majority and Brexit will be delivered most probably in the beginning of next year. However, I've seen a lot of surprises with Brexit in the past 3 years - so I'll wait and see until the government is formed.

Truth, competence and accountability no longer matters. "Because I want to" is now the decisive factor. If any Brit tries to take some kind of moral high ground over reason and logic, ask them if they voted Tory in this election. If they did, ask them whether reason, logic and all that mattered to them when they decided to vote for Johnson as PM.

[Furunculus]

Yes.
i gave my reasons and logic already They stand, as does my choice.

[Idaho]

As things stand, looking through various news sources, the Conservatives will easily win a majority and Brexit will be delivered most probably in the beginning of next year. However, I've seen a lot of surprises with Brexit in the past 3 years - so I'll wait and see until the government is formed.

Brexit will still be "in progress" for the next 10 years. The idea that a country can break a treaty and a comprehensive set of laws, systems and regulations and then enact a whole bunch of replacements quickly is pure brexiteer fantasy.

[Beskar]

Brexit will still be "in progress" for the next 10 years. The idea that a country can break a treaty and a comprehensive set of laws, systems and regulations and then enact a whole bunch of replacements quickly is pure brexiteer fantasy.

For the populace, it is getting "Brexit done" and by "Brexit done" is get the divorced paper signed. You still have to start dividing the estates and kids, but at least it is done/official.

[Greyblades]

Brexit will still be "in progress" for the next 10 years. The idea that a country can break a treaty and a comprehensive set of laws, systems and regulations and then enact a whole bunch of replacements quickly is pure brexiteer fantasy.

Your apparant belief that this is some immutable law of the universe is what is fantastical.

The land speed of a parliament is limited only by its willingness to move, when it doesnt want to do something within it power: delays abound, seasons pass, lives are lost to the attrition of time. When it does want to do something; no matter how fucking stupid, unpopular, self destructive and futile that thing may be, it will be legislated and enforcement attempted at distressing velocity.

Similarly negociations go as fast as both sides allow them to go; limited only by how it costs them to delay and how much they believe they can gain for doing so. These calculations are key and a lopsided balance of will to wait out the other lead to the most important and far reaching treaty of the 20th century being agreed to after three days of talking in a train car.

The shitshow of the last three years was because of one side's unwillingness to apply to the other a cost to delay; the EU thus had little to lose (that thier political class cared about at least) by delaying while the potential of the british political class to capitulate presented a great gain.

The future negociations will hopefully be different, though thanks to may's deal the EU will posess much more breathing room than they have any business having, not to mention £39 bn of our money in thier war chest. We can only hope the next tory majority will have some balls and refuse to enact it.

We'll only still be here in ten years if we allow ourselves to be, and as much of a pack of traitorous backstabbing bastards the majority of our current politicians might be, they wont survive two whole election cycles if they allow us to be so bogged down.

[edyzmedieval]

Idaho is right - this whole Brexit mess does not end after the leaving is done and dusted, it will take a long time to unravel and get to the same point it is right now. I've studied the uncodified constitution of the UK extensively, getting together a comprehensive set of laws to replace European Laws will be an absolute gutter mess to sort out.

And it will take a significant period of time.

[Pannonian]

Your apparant belief that this is some immutable law of the universe is what is fantastical.

The land speed of a parliament is limited only by its willingness to move, when it doesnt want to do something within it power: delays abound, seasons pass, lives are lost to the attrition of time. When it does want to do something; no matter how fucking stupid, unpopular, self destructive and futile that thing may be, it will be legislated and enforcement attempted at distressing velocity.

Similarly negociations go as fast as both sides allow them to go; limited only by how it costs them to delay and how much they believe they can gain for doing so. These calculations are key and a lopsided balance of will to wait out the other lead to the most important and far reaching treaty of the 20th century being agreed to after three days of talking in a train car.

The shitshow of the last three years was because of one side's unwillingness to apply to the other a cost to delay; the EU thus had little to lose (that thier political class cared about at least) by delaying while the potential of the british political class to capitulate presented a great gain.

The future negociations will hopefully be different, though thanks to may's deal the EU will posess much more breathing room than they have any business having, not to mention £39 bn of our money in thier war chest. We can only hope the next tory majority will have some balls and refuse to enact it.

We'll only still be here in ten years if we allow ourselves to be, and as much of a pack of traitorous backstabbing bastards the majority of our current politicians might be, they wont survive two whole election cycles if they allow us to be so bogged down.

Still blaming Remainers and the EU. And calling those who disagree with you "traitorous backstabbing bastards".

[Furunculus]

Idaho is right - this whole Brexit mess does not end after the leaving is done and dusted, it will take a long time to unravel and get to the same point it is right now. I've studied the uncodified constitution of the UK extensively, getting together a comprehensive set of laws to replace European Laws will be an absolute gutter mess to sort out.

And it will take a significant period of time.

beskar is also right.

re the future: it's almost like we dont have 800+ years of legal evolution to draw on, not least eased by simply adopting eu law into uk canon before continueing on.

no tabula rasa required.

[Greyblades]

Idaho is right - this whole Brexit mess does not end after the leaving is done and dusted, it will take a long time to unravel and get to the same point it is right now. I've studied the uncodified constitution of the UK extensively, getting together a comprehensive set of laws to replace European Laws will be an absolute gutter mess to sort out.

And it will take a significant period of time.

In addition to what furunculus said; this assumes I want to get to the same point it is now. There is much bad in the EU's regulations and laws that we will be better rid of and those good enough to keep should be put into law the old fasioned way; through parliament's processes as they should have to begin with.

Still blaming Remainers and the EU. And calling those who disagree with you "traitorous backstabbing bastards".

I dont blame the EU for acting sensibly in persuing its goals, as loathsome as those goals may be, nor do I blame the remainers for being remainers, again as loathsome as the goals of such are.

I suppose I do have to moderate my catagorization somewhat as not all of the ones I was thinking of are technically traitorous backstabbing bastards; the lib dems who invited verhoffstadt to speak at thier party conference are frontstabbing bastards, the Tories who were voted in on pledges of delivering brexit only to rebel once boris came into power are backstabbing bastards, the labour-ites that want to put that front bench in charge of the country are simply bastards and the group of tories that worked with may in an attempt to ensure our capitulation are full traitorous backstabbing bastards.

[Greyblades]

In addition to what furunculus said; this assumes I want to get to the same point it is now. There is much bad in the EU's regulations and laws that we will be better rid of and those good enough to keep should be put into law the old fasioned way; through parliament's processes as they should have to begin with.

I said this in a moment of tiredness hence the part where I reffered to my wishes over the needs of law. While I am more lucid I would like to elaborate; now, its true it will take much time and effort but I dont see this as some sort of "brexit in process" imposition I see this as the backlog to be cleared now we have resumed proper function. A backlog that will be cleared as fast as parliament allows it to be.

This is normalcy; what we pay them to do in the first place, and the outsourcing to foreign lawmaking of the last 20 years is the true abberation.

There's no reason to view this as a crisis; as furunculus said there is a fix of a blanket "we're keeping it" bill, personally I wouldnt want it beyond a "while we figure out what we want" measure because I dont see all of it as worth keeping, I suspect much of the populace and possibly even the next parliament may share the sentiment.

A second thing to note in lucidity:

Still blaming Remainers and the EU.

Good of you to acknowlege the status of May's wets as EU/remainer assets, as mentioned I blame the traitors for being traitorous backstabbing bastards; not the opposition that are willing to exploit the traitors.

Using the turncoats is just how the game is played, bile over not refusing them is futile, we could only wish there were some going the other way.

[Beskar]

The UK is a floozy, fantasising about fanciful trade packages it could have if it just became single again and divorces the EU.

[Idaho]

The UK is a very varied place with all kinds of wacky hopes and motivations.

The biggest triumph of brexit is the super rich who can dodge the BEPS legislation the EU is pushing. The media owners, dodgy foreign cleptocrats and hedge funds being the main concentrations of those benefiting... Ooh look at that! The very same people who have managed to convince most of the population that they are fighting for their great British freedom.

It's not even subtle.

[edyzmedieval]

beskar is also right.

re the future: it's almost like we dont have 800+ years of legal evolution to draw on, not least eased by simply adopting eu law into uk canon before continueing on.

no tabula rasa required.

It's not that easy to cut, paste and move on. In fact, it's worse.

800+ years of legal evolution were done without anything requiring it to be done in the same vein as another set of parallel / regulatory law set, which has changed every single aspect of lawmaking in the United Kingdom for the past 50 years.

When your last 50 years were done in tandem with another entity to work on this, this is not going to be solved in the next 5-10 years, absolutely no chance. And again, since the UK constitution is uncodified, unraveling a set of laws that are scattered throughout the whole country is another mess to deal with. Legal scholars are probably stocking up on Red Bulls and coffee supplies, knowing the amount of work required after Brexit is done.

[Furunculus]

sure, all this may be true.

and still it will be done.

[Greyblades]

The UK is a very varied place with all kinds of wacky hopes and motivations.

The biggest triumph of brexit is the super rich who can dodge the BEPS legislation the EU is pushing. The media owners, dodgy foreign cleptocrats and hedge funds being the main concentrations of those benefiting... Ooh look at that! The very same people who have managed to convince most of the population that they are fighting for their great British freedom.

It's not even subtle.

...What makes you think we cared? Do you think 17 million would have voted differently based on their understanding of the motivations of the ERG and the like?

To abandon your goal because someone else's motivation for the same outcome is different to yours, its a rather bizzare way of thinking.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The UK is a very varied place with all kinds of wacky hopes and motivations.

The biggest triumph of brexit is the super rich who can dodge the BEPS legislation the EU is pushing. The media owners, dodgy foreign cleptocrats and hedge funds being the main concentrations of those benefiting... Ooh look at that! The very same people who have managed to convince most of the population that they are fighting for their great British freedom.

It's not even subtle.

Isn't BEPS pretty much about forcing everyone else to accept UK standards, as opposed to us raising ours?

[rory_20_uk]

...What makes you think we cared? Do you think 17 million would have voted differently based on their understanding of the motivations of the ERG and the like?

To abandon your goal because someone else's motivation for the same outcome is different to yours, its a rather bizzare way of thinking.

EU rules won't stop offshore entities whatsoever. Foundations and Trusts will continue on... If you can't beat them join them - I'm tempted t start one!

[edyzmedieval]

sure, all this may be true.

and still it will be done.

Sure - it will be done.

Except that it will be done at a massive lost business opportunity due to legal incertainty / confusion, public administration complications, frivolous lawsuits due to said confusion and an overall uncertainty that will roll over at least 5-10 years. That will be a very high price to pay.

[Furunculus]

Versus being rolled progressively further into a nascent federal state that has never had public consent.... Yes, please, with vigour, anx twice on sundays.

The only argument i can see you are making is that we should have done this pre-lisbon, or even pre-Maastricht

[Idaho]

Versus being rolled progressively further into a nascent federal state that has never had public consent.... Yes, please, with vigour, anx twice on sundays.

The only argument i can see you are making is that we should have done this pre-lisbon, or even pre-Maastricht

I completely agree that the EU is a ropey organisation. But it's a bland, dull, gravy train type, not some menacing monster out to subvert our honest British pluck. It does a pretty good, and cheap, job of the bureaucracy. It's fine to vote for an exit and to manage that exit well. But none of this is happening. We are getting a total mess supported by fools for the benefit of an elite.

Brexit and Johnson are the British political equivalent of the rise of flat earth and anti vaxxers.

[Montmorency]

I completely agree that the EU is a ropey organisation. But it's a bland, dull, gravy train type, not some menacing monster out to subvert our honest British pluck. It does a pretty good, and cheap, job of the bureaucracy. It's fine to vote for an exit and to manage that exit well. But none of this is happening. We are getting a total mess supported by fools for the benefit of an elite.

Brexit and Johnson are the British political equivalent of the rise of flat earth and anti vaxxers.

It can't help but reinforce the dichotomy that the left want to build and the right only know how to destroy. As though the mere arbitrary desire not to be in the European Union could be justified at any cost.