Results 1 to 30 of 66

Thread: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,930
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i like a majoritarian electoral system (different from majoritarian government), and would reject systems greatly encourage that outcome.
    Are you able to explain this a little better for me?

    If I am understanding you correctly, you like this (which is different from this), and therefore you reject any systems which greatly encourage this.

    If I understood you correctly, are you able explore your views of the criticisms?



    As a side-note, I kind of see Majoritarian Democracy as what Marx meant by Tyranny of the Proletariat. ie: The workers have full control as they outnumber the bourgeoisie. In a very simplistic way.
    Last edited by Beskar; 01-31-2020 at 00:26.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  2. #2
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Are you able to explain this a little better for me?

    If I am understanding you correctly, you like this (which is different from this), and therefore you reject any systems which greatly encourage this.

    If I understood you correctly, are you able explore your views of the criticisms?



    As a side-note, I kind of see Majoritarian Democracy as what Marx meant by Tyranny of the Proletariat. ie: The workers have full control as they outnumber the bourgeoisie. In a very simplistic way.
    Well, the best system of government is a benign but competent Tyrant, as originally expounded by Aristotle and demonstrated by Terry Pratchett. So, anything else is a compromise designed to prevent the ascension of a malign Tyrant.

    It's worth noting that recent elections, whilst not necessarily returning MP's with absolute majorities have tended to reflect the national mood. We threw Labour out in 2010 but were only lukewarm on Cameron whilst quite enchanted with Clegg - result was a Lib-Dem Coalition. In 2015 we were ready to give David Cameron an actual working majority after he legislated for something like a Living Wage and homosexual marriage. In 2017 a lot of us felt Theresa May was the wrong person for the job but even more so didn't want Corbyn - Hung Parliament with minority Conservative Government. Then, 2019 a lot of people a sick and./or afraid of Corbyn, his hypocrisy, his racism and his general incompetence whilst Boris Johnson is offering higher wages, lower taxes and an end to Brexit.

    Result: Thundering Conservative Majority.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  3. #3

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    It's worth noting that recent elections, whilst not necessarily returning MP's with absolute majorities have tended to reflect the national mood. We threw Labour out in 2010 but were only lukewarm on Cameron whilst quite enchanted with Clegg - result was a Lib-Dem Coalition. In 2015 we were ready to give David Cameron an actual working majority after he legislated for something like a Living Wage and homosexual marriage. In 2017 a lot of us felt Theresa May was the wrong person for the job but even more so didn't want Corbyn - Hung Parliament with minority Conservative Government. Then, 2019 a lot of people a sick and./or afraid of Corbyn, his hypocrisy, his racism and his general incompetence whilst Boris Johnson is offering higher wages, lower taxes and an end to Brexit.

    Result: Thundering Conservative Majority.
    The flaw in the "national mood" story is that the difference between a hung parliament and a thundering majority is 5% of the vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    In short:
    I recognise that society must change, which means it must move outside of the experience of the status quo. because, events!
    Because we are moving outside the status quo in response to events, i don't want public policy defined by the 'argument' the competing parties have in their understanding of each other.
    It limits the range of change into too small a bandwidth.
    I agree in principle but, uh - so you are a radical!
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Member thankful for this post:



  4. #4
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,958

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Are you able to explain this a little better for me?

    If I am understanding you correctly, you like this (which is different from this), and therefore you reject any systems which greatly encourage this.

    If I understood you correctly, are you able explore your views of the criticisms?



    As a side-note, I kind of see Majoritarian Democracy as what Marx meant by Tyranny of the Proletariat. ie: The workers have full control as they outnumber the bourgeoisie. In a very simplistic way.
    In short:
    I recognise that society must change, which means it must move outside of the experience of the status quo. because, events!
    Because we are moving outside the status quo in response to events, i don't want public policy defined by the 'argument' the competing parties have in their understanding of each other.
    It limits the range of change into too small a bandwidth.

    What i see a majoritiarian electoral system giving me is radical policy (even if it is occasionally radical in the opposite direction to my preference).
    Fail quickly, fail fast.
    Adapt and thrive, fail and stagnate.

    As a side effect of having to have the coalition in place before the election (within the party), it encourages the platform to be as wide as possible in order to appeal to an election winning common-ground as well as their voter heartlands. Where consensual systems lead to the coalition after the election (between parties), allowing manifesto's to be ejected, success/failure criteria difficult to establish, and permissive of fringe parties well outside the common ground to succeed, and be a part of policy making.

    There's lots of good things about proportional/consensual politics, but lots of failings too.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

    Members thankful for this post (2):



  5. #5
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    In short:
    I recognise that society must change, which means it must move outside of the experience of the status quo. because, events!
    Because we are moving outside the status quo in response to events, i don't want public policy defined by the 'argument' the competing parties have in their understanding of each other.
    It limits the range of change into too small a bandwidth.

    What i see a majoritiarian electoral system giving me is radical policy (even if it is occasionally radical in the opposite direction to my preference).
    Fail quickly, fail fast.
    Adapt and thrive, fail and stagnate.

    As a side effect of having to have the coalition in place before the election (within the party), it encourages the platform to be as wide as possible in order to appeal to an election winning common-ground as well as their voter heartlands. Where consensual systems lead to the coalition after the election (between parties), allowing manifesto's to be ejected, success/failure criteria difficult to establish, and permissive of fringe parties well outside the common ground to succeed, and be a part of policy making.

    There's lots of good things about proportional/consensual politics, but lots of failings too.
    At what point do you assess the success or failure of Brexit?

  6. #6
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,958

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    At what point do you assess the success or failure of Brexit?
    https://professorbuzzkill.com/qnq-26-zhou-enlai/
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  7. #7
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    You mean never. So basically you get to go for as radical a change as possible, regardless of mandate or not, and there is never any argument against it.

  8. #8
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,958

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    You mean never. So basically you get to go for as radical a change as possible, regardless of mandate or not, and there is never any argument against it.


    yes. Precisely.

    and you get to argue for some milquetoast consensual democracy where choice is carefully hemmed into a safe path via constitutional guardrails to make sure that tomorrow is quite like yesterday.

    obviously, i think that is a terrible idea if we desire the long term survival of an adaptable and agile nation-state, but there we are...
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  9. #9
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    8,408
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    After the last 25 years of shih tzu after shih tzu, duck hunt after duck hunt, I think I am truly sick of major spurr of the moment reform

    I dont want yet another experiment nor do I want a foreign transplant from a different system I want the wreckage of the blair cameron and may years to be fixed or undone.
    Last edited by Beskar; 02-02-2020 at 01:28. Reason: naughty words removed
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  10. #10
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    yes. Precisely.

    and you get to argue for some milquetoast consensual democracy where choice is carefully hemmed into a safe path via constitutional guardrails to make sure that tomorrow is quite like yesterday.

    obviously, i think that is a terrible idea if we desire the long term survival of an adaptable and agile nation-state, but there we are...
    How do you assess change to be effective and positive if, as you argue, the principle of change is the only principle that needs to be observed, and results do not matter until some point in the distant future when all the participants are dead? You quote Zhou Enlai to support your argument as though he actually does, when Zhou was actually from the progressive branch of the CCP (his protege famously coined the black and white cat quote to decry dogmatism). Your argument for radical reform for radical reform's sake is more reminiscent of Mao Zedong's call for eternal revolution, aka the cultural revolution. That argument led to the destruction of China's historical heritage for the sake of change.

    I think I can do without that kind of adaptation and agility. I actually admire Zhou Enlai's school of pragmatism, gradualism and cooperation, and I despise the Maoist doctrine of violent change for change's sake.

  11. #11
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,690
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    At what point do you assess the success or failure of Brexit?
    Radical change - leaving something that the UK only joined under 50 years ago and changed several times in the meantime.

    When was the success or failure of the EU established? Given that what was initially joined was radically different to what was left, there surely was a review at each change. Or not.

    Or more broadly, when is there a review of every major policy decision the government takes undertaken? Practically never.

    A desire to bang the drum on one issue is on one hand laudable in how many threads can be derailed to the one issue, but is also very, very wearing.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  12. #12
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    At what point do you assess the success or failure of Brexit?
    20-50 years.

    Now, can we get off Brexit and back on topic, please?
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

    Member thankful for this post:



  13. #13
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    20-50 years.

    Now, can we get off Brexit and back on topic, please?
    You and others turned the discussion to the benefits of the current electoral system. Furunculus argued that the system gives a mandate for radical reform. So I asked him how long it would take for the most radical recent reform to be assessed. Is this not a natural progression of your thread of discussion? Or does radical reform exist as some kind of eternal revolution a la Mao Zedong that does not need to be assessed, merely embarked on without thought of consequences?

  14. #14
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    You and others turned the discussion to the benefits of the current electoral system. Furunculus argued that the system gives a mandate for radical reform. So I asked him how long it would take for the most radical recent reform to be assessed. Is this not a natural progression of your thread of discussion? Or does radical reform exist as some kind of eternal revolution a la Mao Zedong that does not need to be assessed, merely embarked on without thought of consequences?
    Those are escellent question, but they really belong in their own thread if you want to discuss them at length, for they are rather more serious that the topic at hand is meant to be.

    I should be quite happy to contribute to such a thread, I might add.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO