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Thread: Coronavirus / COVID-19

  1. #661
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    “To think I’m going to work and am leaving this mask at home on my kitchen table because the employer won’t let me wear it,” Scott said. “You feel sacrificial in a way.”
    This doctor was asked to sacrifice a bit too much:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/n...ronavirus.html

    Probably going to see much more of this, especially when round II arrives....

    At some point we need to enforce the understanding that terrorism is not protected speech.
    I never understood why liberals never just brought their own guns.
    By what, bringing a shitload of LEO's or the military? The ensuing bloodbath would give these idiots exactly what they want.....publicity. Wanna shut them down? Stop plastering their "Fake Protests" in the media. These people are much like their Fearless Leader---they suffer from attention deficit.

    America's closed, and don't let the jackals out front tell you otherwise.
    You can't continue to be closed indefinitely. At some point, the nation has to resume life, albeit at a different normal. You can't wait until the R0 figure gets to zero, because that will never happen.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Even in Sweden's example, as I understand it to the extent their strategy would be working (and it's not clear that it is) it is to the extent Swedes are obeying anarchist principles - non-coercion, independent concerted action toward common good - by individually deciding to drastically curtail consumer and commercial activity as a solidarity measure. (Very fascinating that Sweden's pandemic response has become a de facto case study in anarchism; I never would have predicted it.)
    You have instructions from a state institution in combination with legal enforcement of specific measures. Behind the instructions is also an implicit threat that more legal enforcement could start if the spread of the virus is not adequately contained. It is pretty far removed from anarchy.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    at a different normal.
    This requires centralized planning and execution, of which there is none at the moment. The president advocated injecting Lysol and UV irradiation, and is still marketing a miracle happening. McConnell is advocating protecting businesses from being sued in case the second wave ends up claiming tens of thousands of more lives.

    The US is in a worse position administratively than most "developing" nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    By what, bringing a shitload of LEO's or the military?
    It was a joke, but I still don't understand why this is allowable.

    I swear, Americans are so afraid of government that they weakened theirs to be of any use. It's a path down Greek city-statism where everyone is in their own corner doing whatever they feel like.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    The US is in a worse position administratively than most "developing" nations.
    At the federal level, yes. The states banding into local groups, not as much. Testing is still a problem, and the virus is just beginning to burn through the rural areas. If our Fearless Leader was any kind of a leader at all, the testing could be brought under better control if the federal government used its' considerable powers to take control of procuring the necessary testing.

    It was a joke, but I still don't understand why this is allowable.
    And neither do I. I can understand the right to bear arms, but exactly what is the purpose of allowing people to bear arms (and assault rifles, at that) in a place of government? To shoot a legislator if you don't agree with them? It's insane
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  5. #665

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Another Trumpian Leader is hopefully on the verge of suffering political consequences.
    https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/...-with-covid-19

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    The coronavirus pandemic has so far proven to be a boost for many autocratic leaders around the world, who have managed to exploit the crisis to expand and tighten their hold on power. But the situation is different for at least one far-right demagogue, for whom the pandemic is shaping up to become the key line in his political obituary: Brazil’s Jair Bolsonaro.

    The political future of a president who has been called the “Trump of the Tropics” now hangs in the balance as Bolsonaro continues to actively exhort Brazilians to reject public health measures, even as the number of COVID-19 cases in the country climbs rapidly. In recent days, Bolsonaro has lost two of the most popular members of his Cabinet in circumstances that left him politically wounded. Now, the Supreme Court is looking into allegations—from Bolsonaro’s own justice minister—that the president meddled with the police and obstructed justice, a move that could ultimately sink his presidency.

    Each day, it seems, brings a new development in the troubles swirling around Bolsonaro. Some are not directly related to the pandemic—like his move to appoint a new, politically pliant head of the national police, allegedly to protect his family from accusations of corruption. But his evident mishandling of the coronavirus crisis has put his incompetence and demagoguery in full view, magnifying the impact of scandals of his own making. The possibility that Bolsonaro will end up being impeached and removed from office is now very real.

    Like many populists, Bolsonaro spent months denying and downplaying the threat posed by the virus. He called COVID-19 a “measly cold,” uttering a slew of nonsensical arguments, including the claim that Brazilians are uniquely protected because they can swim in raw sewage and “don’t catch a thing.”

    He was one of the last populist leaders anywhere to acknowledge the threat of the coronavirus. But even then, in a televised speech in late March, he rejected the widely accepted prescription of social distancing and quarantine-like measures. In terms similar to those used by President Donald Trump in his rambling and incoherent White House appearances, he has said the measures against the virus cannot be worse than the illness. Just days ago, Bolsonaro joined a controversial pro-military demonstration against the stay-at-home orders that he has been unable to thwart.

    By now, it is obvious that Bolsonaro was wrong in dismissing the risk of the pandemic. The deaths of more than 5,000 Brazilians have been officially attributed to COVID-19, and Brazil has the second-highest number of reported cases of the virus among countries in the Western Hemisphere, after the United States.

    The situation would be even more dire had it not been for other government officials, along with Brazilian citizens themselves, who rejected Bolsonaro’s quack views and moved to follow the recommendations of public health experts. They did it as Bolsonaro accused the media of “tricking” the public to stoke panic and recommended unproven malaria drugs, just as Trump did. State governors defied Bolsonaro. Brazil’s most populous states, following the experts’ advice, ordered quarantines, and the public sided with them.

    Then Bolsonaro locked horns with his own health minister, Luiz Henrique Mandetta, who had become a focus of national admiration with his own regular, public briefings. The situation became untenable when Mandetta publicly called for a unified public message, essentially suggesting that Bolsonaro should fall in line. The president fired Mandetta in mid-April, a shocking move in the midst of a public health crisis. By then, Mandetta’s approval rating had soared to 76 percent, more than double Bolsonaro’s dismal 33 percent.

    But that was just the beginning. Brazilians were even more shocked when Justice Minister Sergio Moro—a star in Bolsonaro’s Cabinet—resigned in protest last week, accusing the president of firing the country’s top police chief in an effort to protect his sons from criminal investigation and gain access to classified information. Moro’s resignation could not have been more dramatic, since it came in an extraordinary speech in which he detailed the devastating accusations.

    That it was Moro who lodged the accusations magnifies their impact immeasurably. The now-former justice minister had near-mythical status in the country, having led the sprawling anti-corruption investigations known as Operation Car Wash that rocked Latin America and resulted in the imprisonment and resignation of presidents, ministers, members of Congress and prominent figures in countries across the region, including Brazil.

    By appointing Moro justice minister, Bolsonaro had cemented the central theme of his election campaign: that he would battle entrenched corruption. Now Moro accuses him of being at least as corrupt as any of his predecessors.

    Police have Bolsonaro’s sons in their sights. Flavio and Carlos, both politicians, are under investigation for embezzlement, with new and damning stories surfacing in the media regularly. In the most recent bombshell, the daily Folha de Sao Paulo reported that police have accused Carlos Bolsonaro of running a fake news ring to disseminate misinformation. The president denies all the accusations.

    Bolsonaro also denies Moro’s accusation that he fired the national police chief so he could appoint someone who would acquiesce to illegal requests. As president, he said he has the right to hire anyone he wants as head of the national police. But Moro provided the press with screenshots of messages he received from Bolsonaro that back his claims.

    The question now is what will happen to Bolsonaro. The Supreme Court is launching an investigation into Moro’s allegations that the president was engaging in obstruction of justice. The popular pot-banging demonstrations in cities and towns across Brazil, which started as a protest against the government’s inaction on COVID-19, have turned into a ritual call for Bolsonaro’s impeachment, and they are gaining strength.

    Bolsonaro appeared in public on April 19 to support a pro-military protest in Brasilia where some of his backers urged him to reinstate a 1968 law that allowed the president to dismiss the Congress and essentially become a dictator. Bolsonaro has been an avowed admirer of Brazil’s past military dictatorships and has taken care to maintain close relations with the military, which he sees as a good insurance policy.

    But the military was reportedly uncomfortable with the recent demonstration, which was strategically staged in front of the army’s headquarters. Former President Fernando Henrique Cardoso tweeted his criticism of Bolsonaro, saying it was “deplorable” that he joined anti-democratic protests. “Time to unite,” he wrote, “against all threats to democracy.”



    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    The difference between national 'success' rates:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...virus-experts/
    I'm just not clear on what bounds are placed on this sort of logic.

    It is possible that countries cannot be compared to countries. It is possible that we cannot assess the differences between what is going on in London and what is going on in Dublin, or London and Manchester, or New York and Newark. It is possible that nothing is like anything and knowledge of the world is inaccessible or unavailable. But with all due respect, to the extent we do not take this posture to everything else in life, we should reject the kind of dismissive stance that because complex factors must be taken into consideration as to the effects of public health measures, we cannot have a consideration in the first place. With this mindset it would never have been possible for us to develop a body of public health expertise, which is very much reliant on comparison of practices and outcomes across time and place.

    Now, I'm sure no one takes the kind of extreme stance I alluded to, but something approaching it does tend to be deployed as a sort of convenient deflection. It's so on the nose that Professor Neal's section of the article was headed by "Just bad luck?" I mean come on. As though having cities and airports makes a country incomparable to another country, despite the very predicate being that comparison. It's incoherent.

    I believe that comparing epidemics between countries is erroneous. I say epidemics despite, because although it has been called a pandemic, we are seeing essentially lots of epidemics in different nations, and in different regions.
    That's literally what a pandemic is. 'You say pandemic, I say [pænˈdɛmɪk]'


    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    By what, bringing a shitload of LEO's or the military? The ensuing bloodbath would give these idiots exactly what they want.....publicity. Wanna shut them down? Stop plastering their "Fake Protests" in the media. These people are much like their Fearless Leader---they suffer from attention deficit.
    Oh, the media should cover the protests. But they should call them terrorist incidents and cover them as such. They should explain who has organized them, and how their strings emanate from the Trump cabinet itself.

    And they should prominently display the image of armed and angry men storming our public institutions (whichever version fits the tone), alongside clips like these:


    You can't continue to be closed indefinitely. At some point, the nation has to resume life, albeit at a different normal. You can't wait until the R0 figure gets to zero, because that will never happen.
    We may well go forward into the summer having little to show for the time passed. Not enough testing, chaos among providers, no advent of national coordination. What do we do then? I can't answer that. It's tough to bear a sense that what we're doing is futile and our rulers are indifferent to suffering.

    I'll accord Newsom and Cuomo the benefit of the doubt that their road maps are appropriate to our respective jurisdictions. I don't know what the prospects for the rest of the country are.




    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    You have instructions from a state institution in combination with legal enforcement of specific measures. Behind the instructions is also an implicit threat that more legal enforcement could start if the spread of the virus is not adequately contained. It is pretty far removed from anarchy.
    Anarchism the political philosophy, not in the colloquial sense.
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  6. #666
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I'm just not clear on what bounds are placed on this sort of logic.

    It is possible that countries cannot be compared to countries. It is possible that we cannot assess the differences between what is going on in London and what is going on in Dublin, or London and Manchester, or New York and Newark. It is possible that nothing is like anything and knowledge of the world is inaccessible or unavailable.
    Of course there are bounds - i am already on record as saying that Britain's approach [remains] closer to that of sweden than many people appreciate.
    Given our 'gotcha journalism' headlines of "gov't u-turns" most people assume we [reverted] to a model closer to the suppression end of the spectrum.
    What I have been responding to is the certainty and absolutism in the judgements on strategy and success - because there is simply insufficient information to justify such judgement.

    UK to announce next sunday the reopening of primary schools from June 1st (after half term):
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...nlock-britain/

    The world misunderstands Sweden's strategy:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...e-coronavirus/

    Prof. Wold also disputed the notion that Sweden had deliberately set out to create ‘herd immunity’ by letting the virus run rampant.

    “It’s never been the policy. Like every other country the strategy has been to protect hospitals from being overwhelmed and to protect the elderly and most vulnerable,” she said. “The difference is in the means Sweden has used to achieve this.”
    ....
    “What it has done differently is it has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate. Sweden represents a future model if we want to return to a society that we do not have to close.”
    Last edited by Furunculus; 05-03-2020 at 09:37.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Anarchism the political philosophy, not in the colloquial sense.
    Yes, refer to what I quoted.

    Of course, as long as humans possess fear, take the consequences of their actions into account when considering what do to do, and have conflicting interests, coercion, in some form, is a given.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    What do we do then?
    Ignore mass graves?
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    I'm not sure how the article managed to miss it, but Sergio Moro was much more important to Bolsonaro than it suggests. He played a crucial at disqualifying the most threatening opponent of Bolsonaro, Lula, openly abusing the integrity of his office.

    https://theintercept.com/2019/06/09/...tion-car-wash/

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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    One good reason to question published data:

    https://twitter.com/jmbrkphd/status/1256223999446659073

    Well, until recently, the Georgia DPH was reporting new cases based on the date of confirmation. There was an inherent lag b/c it can take awhile to get test results back, but at least this gave us a sense of where things were headed. But now... They’re backdating positive diagnoses to the date the test was administered or the date on which an individual first started showing symptoms. But they are still graphing the data up through the current day. The net results is an artificial downward slope.
    (From a Trump tweet):

    ....And then came a Plague, a great and powerful Plague, and the World was never to be the same again! But America rose from this death and destruction, always remembering its many lost souls, and the lost souls all over the World, and became greater than ever before!
    This is going to become more common-place in the next few weeks:

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...ing-businesses

    I'm slowly becoming convinced that the only way to put an end to this kind of stupidity is to let everyone out of their cages, let the firestorm have its' way, and hundreds of thousands deaths later the gene pool might hopefully be cleansed of many of these morons. A "great and powerful Plague" indeed.

    Gag order on one of the few voices of reason here:

    https://www.vox.com/2020/5/2/2124506...ouse-committee

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    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 05-04-2020 at 04:29.
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    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    What I have been responding to is the certainty and absolutism in the judgements on strategy and success - because there is simply insufficient information to justify such judgement.
    And relying on a deeply flawed model to make policy judgements only makes the situation worse:

    https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2...-ihme-pandemic

    The criticism of the IHME model, and an emerging debate over epidemiology models more broadly, has brought to light important challenges in the fight against the coronavirus. Good planning requires good projections. Models are needed to help predict resurgences and spot a potential second wave.
    it has become clear that the IHME’s projections have been too optimistic, and slow to adjust to reflect the fact that deaths have plateaued rather than rapidly decreasing to zero. The IHME has been regularly updating its model as new data comes in, but the updates have often been slow enough that the numbers are absurd by the time they’re changed in an update.
    In the report explaining the model, the researchers write that they look at four measures: “School closures, non-essential business closures including bars and restaurants, stay-at-home recommendations, and travel restrictions including public transport closures. Days with 1 measure were counted as 0.67 equivalents, days with 2 measures as 0.334 equivalents and with 3 or 4 measures as 0.” In other words, the model has a built-in assumption that once three of those measures have been put into place, cases will rapidly fall to zero. No new data can change that assumption, which is why the model continues to project zero deaths by mid-May in any area that hasn’t lifted social distancing restrictions, even though case numbers have only plateaued rather than declined in many areas.
    “We need to value scientists and listen to experts, but part of listening means understanding that right now, what they’re saying is that they do not have all the answers.” Given the enormous uncertainty ahead, responsible scientists are avoiding giving dramatic topline numbers they’re unsure of, emphasizing the very wide confidence intervals on their estimates, and being careful not to publish results that the Trump administration or the public may interpret as definitive. But people keep searching for definitive answers (understandably so), and so any model that is presented more confidently will rise to prominence over models that are humbler and better reflect the confusion.
    In other words, the fact that many epidemiological models are performing badly isn’t great, but it could be part of a productive process of arriving at better models. But the media, policymakers, and the public need to be conscious of what kind of models we gravitate to and why. If we elevate the ones we like and quote numbers from them as if they’re definitive, then the models will certainly end up shedding more heat than light.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 05-04-2020 at 14:09.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    I'm slowly becoming convinced that the only way to put an end to this kind of stupidity is to let everyone out of their cages, let the firestorm have its' way, and hundreds of thousands deaths later the gene pool might hopefully be cleansed of many of these morons. A "great and powerful Plague" indeed.
    A few things:

    1) This is unethical.

    2) This is contrary to the function of government, which is to create and maintain order.

    3) Morons tend to reproduce faster.

    I am also not inclined to live in in a country with an imploded healthcare system.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    The main problem now is that while we are (mostly) all social distancing and flattening the curve, there doesnt really seem to be a plan to get us to a place where we can reopen. Its like we are in a holding pattern while the pilots bumble about trying to find where the map is so they can land the plane.
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    This is unethical.
    Is it any more unethical than bailing out multi-billion dollar businesses who've been practicing unsustainable economics for years knowing that the feds will bail them out when the shit hits the fan; while leaving thousands of small businesses to fail? Is it any more unethical than telling people in so called "essential" work to either go to work and risk death, or stand to lose everything if you refuse; all so those who have the financial security to be able to work from home or hunker down in their million dollar homes to continue to receive their Amazon packages, have their local grocery store deliver their food, have their garbage picked up, have a medical team treat them if they need hospitalization, or have police and fire departments continue keeping their cities safe? Is it any more unethical than what's playing out in inner city ghetto's or on Native American reservations; where there is not enough food, medicine, or anyone that gives a crap whether they live or die? Is it any more unethical than the tragedy playing out in elderly health care facilities, not only here but across the world? Is it any more unethical than Mitch McConnell advocating that states (read as Democratic states) should just declare bankruptcy; all so he can retain his grip on power? Do I need to go on? The whole f@#$ing process since Patient 0 has been one unethical action after another.

    This is contrary to the function of government, which is to create and maintain order.
    The actions of our governments, both federal and state, has sown the seeds of violent civil unrest that this country hasn't seen since the 60's. When you have twenty or thirty million people out of work, many thousands who cannot pay their mortgage or rent, and combine that with all the guns that people are allowed to carry (assault rifles in a state legislative house, anyone?), there WILL BE cities burning this summer and it won't be from the hot sun.

    A sample of what's to come:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52540266

    Morons tend to reproduce faster.
    I'll leave that for others to decide.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 05-05-2020 at 02:43.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    https://www.apple.com/covid19/mobility
    Apple has a resource tracking Apple IDs, relating to how much movement (walking, driving, public transit) has changed since the pandemic in various locales. It's an interesting proxy, though of course Apple ID aggregation can't give a comprehensive picture of how a population is moving.


    Coronavirus: What is the UK's test, track and trace strategy?
    The UK is perhaps starting to do better than I expected.

    On the easing of restrictions across Europe, India, South Africa. Russia incidence rate is skyrocketing, but this is partially because Russia (surprisingly) is well on its way to becoming one of the top few global leaders in testing.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/i...es-coronavirus



    New York celebrates 1 million tests. But California has finally overtaken New York in average daily testing: 27100 vs. 25800 as of Sunday.



    If you exclude New York and New Jersey, AFAIK the incidence rate in the country overall is growing. Look to the South and Midwest for new hotspots. Speaking of which:
    Top 10 Coronavirus clusters in the US? Prisons, meat packing plants, a Navy battleship. Next 10? Prisons, meat packing plants, nursing homes. Next 10? And the 10 after that? Prisons, meat packing plants and nursing homes....

    Canada compares favorably to the US on a number of pandemic metrics. It's because they have a government and not a Russian-style kleptocracy, single-payer medical coverage, and a saner populace.
    "Canada’s not perfect. But America is clearly worse."

    Per capita, the United States is currently seeing about twice as many confirmed coronavirus cases as Canada and about 30 percent more deaths. When you look at per capita cases and deaths across the course of the entire outbreak, the comparison looks even worse: the United States has over two times as many confirmed coronavirus cases as Canada and roughly twice as many deaths. Canadian testing rates have been consistently higher, especially during critical early stages for the two countries: In mid-March, the Canadian testing rate was roughly five times higher than the American one.
    [...]
    There are a number of factors that have enabled Canada to perform at a higher level than the United States, including more consistent pre-virus funding for public health agencies and a universal health care system. But one of the most important seems to have been a difference in political leadership. The American response has become infected by partisan politics and shot through with federal incompetence. Meanwhile, Canada’s policies have been efficiently implemented with support from leaders across the political spectrum. The comparison is a case study in how a dysfunctional political system can quite literally cost lives. The Canadian approach has not been perfect. Its death rate is currently much higher than best-in-class performers like Germany and South Korea; Canadian officials have fallen down, in particular, when it comes to long-term senior care and the indigenous population. But given the interdependence between these two large neighboring economies, Canadians are not only vulnerable as a result of their own government’s choices but also because of their southern neighbors’ failures.

    The Republican governor of Maryland confirmed in video interview with the Washington Post that the Maryland National Guard is tasked with escorting and guarding half a million COVID tests delivered from South Korea, presumably from the federal government. "...we guarded that cargo from whoever [original emphasis] might interfere with us..."

    When can we say Trump is worse than Buchanan?


    The tried-and-true prescribed pandemic response is to suppress, suppress and contain. Apply restrictions untilR0 is well below 1, relax them and monitor until you're still short of 1, and hold the line until the outbreak dissipates. We as a country were well-positioned to follow this strategy for any prospective pandemic - until now. Just remember, if we do attain a treatment or vaccine soon enough then our collective failed responses will amount to millions - millions - of preventable deaths across North America and Europe alone.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/04/u...s-updates.html
    As President Trump presses for states to reopen their economies, his administration is privately projecting a steady rise in the number of cases and deaths from coronavirus over the next several weeks, reaching about 3,000 daily deaths on June 1, according to an internal document obtained by The New York Times, nearly double from the current level of about 1,750.
    In public Trump is inconsistently promoting "opening" the economy as the Department of Justice under Barr continues to ignore authorization from Congress in the CARES Act to release some prisoners from federal prisons.


    The plan is to have no plan.


    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Of course there are bounds - i am already on record as saying that Britain's approach [remains] closer to that of sweden than many people appreciate.
    Given our 'gotcha journalism' headlines of "gov't u-turns" most people assume we [reverted] to a model closer to the suppression end of the spectrum.
    Everything I'm reading recently about the UK gives me the impression that their designs are more aligned to my standards than yours. I'm not sure what the source of this dissonance could be.

    What I have been responding to is the certainty and absolutism in the judgements on strategy and success - because there is simply insufficient information to justify such judgement.
    Judgements, yes. Absolute, no. There is something to say before 'the curtain drops', make no mistake. Let's be reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Yes, refer to what I quoted.

    Of course, as long as humans possess fear, take the consequences of their actions into account when considering what do to do, and have conflicting interests, coercion, in some form, is a given.
    This is on par with the people who refuse to call any country, institution, or organization "democratic" because no perfect democracy has been achieved. Semantic rigidity like that becomes facile and uninformative in my opinion. Sweden's plan is guided by anarchist principles because it depends on the self-direction of an informed and conscientious citizenry; that a state backstop can be invoked does not change that. Meanwhile, in South Korea, the restrictions on overall business activity and movement are at the moment loose, but confirmed infected individuals are placed under rather strict monitoring and government control (viz. mandatory isolation, the infamous - though probably voluntary - tracking/reporting app). One response is clearly more, and more than trivially, anarchist than another.

    From Furunc's latest Sweden article:

    “What it has done differently is it has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate. Sweden represents a future model if we want to return to a society that we do not have to close.”

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    I'm slowly becoming convinced that the only way to put an end to this kind of stupidity is to let everyone out of their cages, let the firestorm have its' way, and hundreds of thousands deaths later the gene pool might hopefully be cleansed of many of these morons. A "great and powerful Plague" indeed.
    The main stumbling block to this theory is always that, well, there is no marking the doors of the Chosen to spare them from a plague. As Republicans in rural hotspots are learning, disease doesn't target only people whom you dislike. (And even were this not true, even if only Trump-voting 50+ whites were buying it from the virus, it's not like they have much remaining potential to contribute to the gene pool.)

    BTW, this resource on state coronavirus metrics from one of your links is another great one. There is a lot of different data represented here. Thanks.
    https://public.tableau.com/profile/peter.james.walker#!/vizhome/shared/4432NYZC2
    Last edited by Montmorency; 05-05-2020 at 08:06.
    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    The Civil Service Strikes again: Link

    We have the opportunity to allow the Government to collect data from our phones and store it forever for any purpose because... Well, the Civil Service likes centralised approaches and also refuses to ever admit to being wrong.

    Don't worry! It worked on an airbase and they're going to pilot it on the Isle of Wight so all will be fine. What are the outcomes of the pilot that are being assessed? How will success be assessed? Such are not the questions for plebs! Leave it for your betters, vermin.

    Britain again stands alone... More King Canute than Churchill.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  17. #677
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    In public Trump is inconsistently promoting "opening" the economy as the Department of Justice under Barr continues to ignore authorization from Congress in the CARES Act to release some prisoners from federal prisons.
    Much of what the Trump administration, and indeed many state administrations, are using as base information to guide policy decisions is based on a very flawed model, IMHO.

    Again:

    https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2...-ihme-pandemic

    This model is consistently under-estimating cases and deaths despite constant revision:

    its next-day death predictions for each state were outside its 95 percent confidence interval 70 percent of the time — meaning the actual death numbers fell outside the range it projected 70 percent of the time.
    So why do we keep using it when there are clearly better models available? One answer:

    For one thing, it’s more simplistic compared to other models. That means it can be applied in ways more complicated models could not, such as providing state-level projections (something state officials really wanted), which other modelers acknowledged that they didn’t have enough data to offer.
    Meanwhile, its narrow confidence intervals for state-by-state estimates meant it had quotable (and optimistic) topline numbers. A confidence interval represents a range of numbers wherein the model is very confident the true value will lie. A narrow range that gives “an appearance of certainty is seductive when the world is desperate to know what lies ahead,”
    That projected hospitalization rate was one of the things that set it apart, IHME researcher Ali Mokdad told me. It was one of the few models offering that projection, and it was actionable information governments could grab on to and plan around.
    And the possible reason Fearless Leader chose it as THE model to use:

    and the lower death numbers the model churned out as a result reportedly led to it being received favorably by the Trump administration.
    And now:

    But as the weeks have passed, it has become clear that the IHME’s projections have been too optimistic, and slow to adjust to reflect the fact that deaths have plateaued rather than rapidly decreasing to zero [and actually increasing as the virus spreads to rural areas]. The IHME has been regularly updating its model as new data comes in, but the updates have often been slow enough that the numbers are absurd by the time they’re changed in an update.
    So what is the perceived flaw in the IHME model?

    The IHME model is unusual compared to other epidemiological models for its design, too. While most of the models use standard epidemiology modeling tactics like SEIR (susceptible-exposed-infected-recovered modeling) or use computer simulations, the IHME model is effectively just about fitting a curve from early data in China and Italy to the disease’s trajectory elsewhere. The IHME model is based “on a statistical model with no epidemiologic basis,” the Annals of Internal Medicine critique argues.
    Check out the model's prediction for the state of California:

    But on May 20, the model is entirely sure there will be zero deaths. The 95 percent confidence interval runs from zero deaths to ... zero deaths. Mokdad said the model’s zero-deaths predictions were correct: “Based on the graph, in certain states, yes — in California, May 17, zero. The virus is not circulating anymore; you would expect it to go to zero.”
    I'm not an epidemiologist, but my own two eyes tell me that the daily death rate in California will NOT be zero in two weeks

    Another big flaw with the IHME model:

    It assumes that social distancing measures, once put in place, are always sufficient to rapidly decrease case numbers to zero.
    In the report explaining the model, the researchers write that they look at four measures: “School closures, non-essential business closures including bars and restaurants, stay-at-home recommendations, and travel restrictions including public transport closures. Days with 1 measure were counted as 0.67 equivalents, days with 2 measures as 0.334 equivalents and with 3 or 4 measures as 0.”
    In other words, the model has a built-in assumption that once three of those measures have been put into place, cases will rapidly fall to zero. No new data can change that assumption, which is why the model continues to project zero deaths by mid-May in any area that hasn’t lifted social distancing restrictions, even though case numbers have only plateaued rather than declined in many areas.
    There is one thing for certain---there are no certainties concerning this pandemic, and models are just that...possible outcomes. But some seem to be better then the IHME model at predicting possible outcomes:

    https://covid-19.tacc.utexas.edu/med...ting_model.pdf

    The incorporation of real-time geolocation data and several key modifications yields projections that differ noticeably from the IHME model, especially re-garding uncertainty when projecting COVID-19 deaths several weeks into the future.
    As opposed to the IHME model which:

    “Statistical model” refers to putting U.S. data onto the graph of other countries’ Covid-19 deaths over time under the assumption that the U.S. epidemic will mimic that in those countries. But countries’ countermeasures differ significantly. As the epidemic curve in the U.S. changes due to countermeasures that were weaker or later than, say, China’s, the IHME modelers adjust the curve to match the new reality.
    Quote from this article by Harvard epidemiologist Marc Lipsitch:

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/17/...s-critics-say/

    “This appearance of certainty is seductive when the world is desperate to know what lies ahead,” Britta Jewell of Imperial College and her colleagues wrote in their Annals paper. But the IHME model “rests on the likely incorrect assumption that effects of social distancing policies are the same everywhere.” Because U.S. policies are looser than those elsewhere, largely due to inconsistency between states, U.S. deaths could remain at higher levels longer than they did in China, in particular.
    Another model:

    https://reichlab.io/covid19-forecast-hub/

    The flaws I’ve noted above were also features that made the model appealing when it was first launched. It was optimistic, projecting lower deaths than other models. It was clear and precise, with narrow confidence intervals. It projected hospitalizations, which few others were doing — though those projections turned out to be wrong because not enough was known to project hospitalizations well at that stage. In a time of uncertainty, the IHME model was compelling. But it turns out the uncertainty being reflected in a lot of other, better models is showing up for a reason — there really is still a lot unknown about the course this disease will take.
    Time to move on from the IHME model, and its' battle cry "flatten the curve"?
    High Plains Drifter

  18. #678
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    And even were this not true, even if only Trump-voting 50+ whites were buying it from the virus, it's not like they have much remaining potential to contribute to the gene pool
    Like this deranged individual:

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-...ralia/12201348

    "There is so much evidence proving it is a wonderful detox through oxidation that kills 99 per cent of the pathogens in the body, that is why we have so many testimonies," he said.
    "In spite of all the media hype, we see no credible evidence of a pandemic," he said.
    Glad to see the US doesn't quite have the corner on wack-jobs just yet
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 05-05-2020 at 16:54.
    High Plains Drifter

  19. #679
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    This is on par with the people who refuse to call any country, institution, or organization "democratic" because no perfect democracy has been achieved. Semantic rigidity like that becomes facile and uninformative in my opinion. Sweden's plan is guided by anarchist principles because it depends on the self-direction of an informed and conscientious citizenry; that a state backstop can be invoked does not change that. Meanwhile, in South Korea, the restrictions on overall business activity and movement are at the moment loose, but confirmed infected individuals are placed under rather strict monitoring and government control (viz. mandatory isolation, the infamous - though probably voluntary - tracking/reporting app). One response is clearly more, and more than trivially, anarchist than another.

    From Furunc's latest Sweden article:

    Again, people are following the instructions from a state institution (and the state is also intervening directly, closing pubs that do not follow the instructions).

    Anarchism rejects the state. How is it at all meaningful to study a situation that fundamentally goes against the philosophy of anarchism as an example of anarchism in practice? The institution issuing the guidelines was created by and is run by the state, and relies heavily on this fact for its legitimacy.

    Since you mention democracy: is studying the case of an authoritarian state that gives instructions to the population for which political candidates they should vote for a study of democracy in practice if the government initially does not sanction candidates it does not want people to vote for?
    Runes for good luck:

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  20. #680
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    It is possible that countries cannot be compared to countries. It is possible that we cannot assess the differences between what is going on in London and what is going on in Dublin, or London and Manchester, or New York and Newark.
    Perhaps one of the reasons is this:

    https://www.latimes.com/california/s...-than-original

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...054v1.full.pdf

    The mutation Spike D614G is of urgent concern; it began spreading in Europe in early February, and when introduced to new regions it rapidly becomes the dominant form. Also, we present evidence of recombination between locally circulating strains, indicative of multiple strain infections. These finding have important implications for SARS-CoV-2 transmission, pathogenesis and immune interventions.
    Wherever the new strain appeared, it quickly infected far more people than the earlier strains that came out of Wuhan, China, and within weeks it was the only strain that was prevalent in some nations, according to the report. The new strain’s dominance over its predecessors demonstrates that it is more infectious, according to the report, though exactly why is not yet known.
    If the pandemic fails to wane seasonally as the weather warms, the study warns, the virus could undergo further mutations even as research organizations prepare the first medical treatments and vaccines. Without getting on top of the risk now, the effectiveness of vaccines could be limited. Some of the compounds in development are supposed to latch onto the spike or interrupt its action. If they were designed based on the original version of the spike, they might not be effective against the new coronavirus strain, the study’s authors warned.
    Still unknown is whether this mutant virus could account for regional variations in how hard COVID-19 is hitting different parts of the world.
    The Los Alamos study does not indicate that the new version of the virus is more lethal than the original. People infected with the mutated strain appear to have higher viral loads. But the study’s authors from the University of Sheffield found that among a local sample of 447 patients, hospitalization rates were about the same for people infected with either virus version.
    Even if the new strain is no more dangerous than the others, it could still complicate efforts to bring the pandemic under control. That would be an issue if the mutation makes the virus so different from earlier strains that people who have immunity to them would not be immune to the new version. If that is indeed the case, it could make “individuals susceptible to a second infection,” the study authors wrote.
    Let's just hope that further mutations don't exhibit more lethality, or it's 1918 all over again
    High Plains Drifter

  21. #681
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Let's just hope that further mutations don't exhibit more lethality, or it's 1918 all over again
    There's that, and then there's the fact that in less than 20 years we have seen the appearance of no more than three species and strains of coronaviruses capable of causing severe pneumonia at high rates. If this is a new trend rather than an aberration, then with some special amount of luck, we could have a new SARS-like virus appearing on top of that again. It's only eight years since the appearance of MERS, and that outbreak still haven't been stamped out, meaning it is another virus that presents a current mutational threat.
    Runes for good luck:

    [1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1

  22. #682
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Let's just hope that further mutations don't exhibit more lethality, or it's 1918 all over again
    Lethality is one thing. It has already apparently mutated to be more contagious, and we have seen the result. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/05/the-...udy-finds.html
    Requesting suggestions for new sig.

    -><- GOGOGO GOGOGO WINLAND WINLAND ALL HAIL TECHNOVIKING!SCHUMACHER!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    WHY AM I NOT BEING PAID FOR THIS???

  23. #683

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Hahaha Samurai you're going to love this from the White House Council of Economic Advisers Coronavirus Embiggenment Apparatus.
    https://twitter.com/WhiteHouseCEA/st...80258364555264

    For the math people
    https://twitter.com/seanjtaylor/stat...78396308353024
    https://twitter.com/kjhealy/status/1257736949714104322

    (This one might be good for a Fearless Leader joke.)


    Wisconsin Supreme Court Republicans probably going to strike down the state's stay-at-home orders.
    https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1257699256451895296
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...at-home-order/

    Chief Justice Patience Roggensack said the increase in cases in Brown County was the result of an outbreak in a meatpacking facility and that it wasn’t from “the regular folks.”
    Chris Christie on pandemic response:

    Christie spoke about the U.S. sending young men to other countries during World War II "knowing that many of them would not come home alive.""We decided to make that sacrifice because what we were standing up for was the American way of life," he said. "In the very same way now, we have to stand up for the American way of life."
    [...]
    "Of course, everybody wants to save every life they can ― but the question is, towards what end, ultimately?" Christie said. "Are there ways that we can thread the middle here to allow that there are going to be deaths, and there are going to be deaths no matter what?"
    Trump on...

    I'm viewing our great citizens of this country to a certain extent and to a large extent as warriors. They're warriors. We can't keep our country closed. We have to open our country. ... The people aren't going to accept it. They won't accept it, and they shouldn't accept it ... I created, with a lot of other very talented people and the people of our country, the greatest economy in the history of a-of the world. The greatest that we've ever had. The greatest employment numbers, the best numbers we've ever had, the best stock markets - I think we had 144 days of record stock markets - and then one day they said "We have to close our country." Well now it's time to open it up, and you know what? ... And yes, will some people be affected? Yes. Will some people be affected badly? Yes."
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Well your wishes and your feelings
    Your bad dreams and intuitions
    Are about as much good to me right now as a brand new set of golf clubs
    We've been this close to death before, we were just too drunk to know it
    Guess the price of being sobers being scared out of your mind

    When it comes your time to go, ain't no good way to go about it
    Ain't no use in thinking bout it
    You'll just drive yourself insane
    There comes a time for everything
    And the time has come for you to shut your mouth and get your ass on the plane

    Ain't nothing I'd rather do right now than just go on home and lay around
    But that ain't never an option for a working man like me
    How much is enough you ask
    I'll ask the man when I get a chance
    All I know right now, there's somewhere else I'm suppose to be

    When it comes your time to go, ain't no good way to go about it
    Ain't no use in thinking bout it
    You'll just drive yourself insane
    There comes a time for everything
    And the time has come for you to shut your mouth and get your ass on the plane

    Screaming engines, shooting flames
    Dirty needles and cheap cocaine
    Some gal's old man with a gun
    To me it's all the same
    Dead is dead and it ain't no different than walking around if you ain't living
    Living in fear's just another way of dying before your time

    When it comes your time to go, ain't no good way to go about it
    Ain't no use in thinking bout it
    You'll just drive yourself insane
    There comes a time for everything
    And the time has come for you to shut your mouth and get your ass on the plane


    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Yglesias

    Bad luck that a third GOP presidency in a row is going to end with the economy in shambles for contingent reasons that are no reflection on the underlying conservative ideology or structural properties of the movement.
    Why do the far-right across the world agree that coronavirus lockdowns are unacceptable?
    https://twitter.com/Natascha_Strobl/...06764914302979


    In gooder news:

    Irish Return an Old Favor, Helping Native Americans Battling the Virus
    In 1847 the Choctaw people sent $170 to help during the potato famine. Irish donors are citing that gesture as they help two tribes during the Covid-19 pandemic.

    More than 170 years ago, the Choctaw Nation sent $170 to starving Irish families during the potato famine. A sculpture in County Cork commemorates the generosity of the tribe, itself poor. In recent decades, ties between Ireland and the Choctaws have grown. Now hundreds of Irish people are repaying that old kindness, giving to a charity drive for two Native American tribes suffering in the Covid-19 pandemic. As of Tuesday, the fund-raiser has raised more than $1.8 million to help supply clean water, food and health supplies to people in the Navajo Nation and the Hopi Reservation, with hundreds of thousands of dollars coming from Irish donors, according to the organizers. Many donors cited the generosity of the Choctaws, noting that the gift came not long after the United States government forcibly relocated the tribe and several other American Indian groups from the Southeastern United States, a march across thousands of miles known as the Trail of Tears that left thousands of people dead along the way.
    [...]
    News of the donations from Ireland came as the coronavirus has been ripping through tribal lands. The Navajo Nation has had one of the worst coronavirus outbreaks in the United States. There had been more than 2,700 cases and 70 deaths as of Monday, according to the Navajo Nation. A high prevalence of diseases like diabetes, scarcity of running water and homes with several generations living under the same roof have enabled the virus to spread with exceptional speed in places like the Navajo Nation, according to epidemiologists. The Hopi reservation is surrounded by the Navajo Nation.
    I mean, Navajo and Hopi aren't Choctaw - kind of almost opposite sides of the country originally - but it's a nice gesture. (Maybe in the future the Navajo will donate to the cause of Scottish independence?)

    In bad news again:

    Native American health center asked for COVID-19 supplies. It got body bags instead.



    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The Civil Service Strikes again: Link
    The article itself indicates that a lot of different countries are using this model, such as France and Australia. Sweden just rolled out a similar app, apparently. Someone with technical knowledge could probably round up and synthesize more detailed sources.

    The most comprehensive system, and one we should have the most information on, were the South Korean apps. I wish the author would have described the results of its implementation, or its archictecture, or anything.

    My search suggests the South Korean apps support a national "centralized" approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    In South Korea, a non-app-based system was used to perform contact tracing. Instead of using a dedicated app, the system gathered tracking information from a variety of sources including mobile device tracking data and card transaction data, and combined these to generate notices via text messages to potentially-infected individuals.[46] In addition to using this information to alert potential contacts, the government has also made the location information publicly available, something permitted because of far-reaching changes to information privacy laws after the MERS outbreak in that country.[47] This information is available to the public via a number of apps and websites.[47]
    South Korea is watching quarantined citizens with a smartphone app

    Under current guidelines from the Korean Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, anyone who has come into contact with a confirmed coronavirus carrier is subject to a mandatory two-week self-quarantine. “Contact” is defined as having been within two meters of a confirmed carrier, or having been in the same room where a confirmed patient has coughed. Once self-quarantine subjects receive an order from their local medical center, they are legally prohibited from leaving their quarantine areas—usually their homes—and are instructed to maintain strict separation from other people, including family members. Those in lockdown are assigned to a local government case officer, who checks in twice a day by phone to track the development of any symptoms, and mobile testing teams are deployed to collect samples if things escalate. Now those in quarantine can use the app to report their symptoms and provide status updates to officials. And if they venture outside their designated quarantine area, an alert will be sent to both the subject and the case officer.
    [...]
    “The number of self-quarantined people nationwide has reached around 30,000, and there is a limit to the human resources available to local governments to monitor these people,” said Jung Chang-hyun, the ministry official who supervised development of the app. “The app is a support service aimed at making this more efficient.” The app is not mandatory, and because some people may have difficulty downloading or using it, the current system of monitoring through traditional telephone calls will continue. Others can simply opt out. Equally, officials say they are taking a flexible approach to GPS tracking rather than draconian enforcement.
    Seoul’s Radical Experiment in Digital Contact Tracing

    Still, he said, somewhat cautiously, “I think we should try to disclose as much information as we can, rather than holding back.” For Song, this has meant including patients’ age and gender, their neighborhood of residence, and the names of businesses and apartment complexes they had visited, which he sees as a way of assuaging other residents’ anxieties. “
    [...]
    Emergency text alerts, because of their character limit, linked recipients to these entries rather than relaying them in full. “For the text alerts, we use something called a ‘remote broadcasting apparatus,’ ” Song said. “Then it’s sent to every phone in a five-kilometre radius through a nearby base station.” Public appetite for this information is voracious. “Most of the residents’ feedback is asking for more information, for us to be even more revealing,” Song said.
    When a patient tests positive here, Kim’s team retraces their movements based on their oral testimony, and then combs through relevant C.C.T.V. footage in order to locate others who might have been exposed. Restaurants, where people must take their masks off to eat, are the most common sites of exposure. “Say there’s someone who was within two metres of the patient at a restaurant, but we don’t know who that person is, except what they look like in the C.C.T.V. footage,” Kim said. “Then we ask the credit-card company to pull up that customer’s information and ask them to tell them to contact us.” That person is then put under monitored self-isolation for two weeks, using an app that tracks his phone to insure that he isn’t breaking quarantine.

    Behind this model of contact tracing is a vast surveillance apparatus expressly designed for such outbreak scenarios. Under South Korea’s Infectious Disease Control and Prevention Act, health authorities, with the approval of the police and other supervising agencies, can make use of cell-phone G.P.S. data, credit-card payment information, and travel and medical records. As of March 26th, the government has also officially launched the Epidemic Investigation Support System, a data-analysis platform that automates the process, allowing investigators to get clearance and pull up patient trajectories in under a minute. (Previously, the process took about a day.)

    Although some had anticipated a backlash to such sweeping electronic surveillance, public outrage has been nearly nonexistent. According to Kim Min-ho, a law professor and one of the country’s human-rights commissioners, this is because these measures can be used only in the context of disease outbreaks, making it impossible for them to be co-opted for, say, anti-terrorism campaigns.

    “I think there’s a difference in reasoning and perception at play here,” Kim told me, by phone. “The United States was quick to ban businesses, while countries like France instituted lockdowns. But South Korea hasn’t been able to do the same because we’re very cautious about these kinds of measures, in the same way that other countries are cautious about privacy.” Mere weeks after the initial flurry of articles pondering whether or not democracies were better equipped to deal with pandemics, few countries were getting away with not sacrificing some kinds of freedom. As Kim pointed out, the true question was which freedoms to prioritize. The chaos of the mers outbreak had left the public with a grim conviction: sacrificing some individual privacy was simply the upfront cost of avoiding more debilitating consequences down the line.

    South Koreans have decided that, during an infectious-disease outbreak, there is a strong, pragmatic case to be made in favor of what might be called virtuous surveillance—a radically transparent version of people-tracking that is subject to public scrutiny and paired with stringent legal safeguards against abuse. Despite its imperfections, South Korea’s policy is striking for the fact that it brings the mechanisms and outcomes of surveillance into the public forum. In doing so, it appeals to a deeper sense of civic trust—the belief that, in a crisis, the citizenry can be relied upon to play its part.
    [...]
    Eom said, “If there’s a major outbreak here, what happened in Daegu may not even compare,” adding that more than half of South Korea’s population of roughly fifty million lives in the capital area. Moreover, Seoul is nearly twice as dense as New York City. If infections proliferated, he warned, “This sort of patient-movement disclosure or contact tracing will become meaningless.” Far more drastic measures, such as military-enforced lockdowns, might well occur. Seoul poses a far more vexing set of challenges than Daegu did. The vastness of the greater capital area makes potential infection routes difficult to pin down or predict. There are too many blind spots, such as crowded subways and buses, where C.C.T.V. footage provides few usable leads. When I asked Eom what the likelihood of a major outbreak in Seoul is, he let out a loud, unsettled laugh. “I’m just praying it doesn’t happen,” he said. Resisting complacency, Eom said, would be critical. But in recent days, public life in Seoul has begun filling out again. Despite the closure of high-risk businesses like clubs and churches, lines at popular eateries and cafés have reappeared. In the parks and on the esplanades along the Han, the river winding through Seoul, crowds of picnickers have begun to materialize among the cherry blossoms, with the dazed, sleepy air of animals emerging from their dens after a long winter. If another crisis loomed, it was hard to tell. “All of the control and containment procedures essentially rely on the same thing,” Eom told me. “And that is the coöperation and responsible conduct of the citizenry.”
    It was uniquely controversial in reporting the age, gender, and even address (the later was apparently later redacted to just neighborhood) of the suspected/confirmed cases to eligible users. IT isn't my beat; any good articles assessing these issues in South Korea or elsewhere, and not just in theory?

    ...

    After cogitating a little longer, I realized the system for notifying people of potential exposure - SMS alerts assembled from databases - is distinct from the reporting/tracking app that isolated individuals are encouraged to use. So comparing to what digital mechanisms various European countries are introducing is probably more fraught than I appreciated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Again, people are following the instructions from a state institution (and the state is also intervening directly, closing pubs that do not follow the instructions).

    Anarchism rejects the state. How is it at all meaningful to study a situation that fundamentally goes against the philosophy of anarchism as an example of anarchism in practice? The institution issuing the guidelines was created by and is run by the state, and relies heavily on this fact for its legitimacy.
    Seriously? I just said I reject this rigid characterization because it's not descriptively useful. Anarchists acknowledge that states exist today; few would say their philosophy demands the rejection of expertise promulgated by states.

    When the United States became a democracy is open to debate. Critical milestones are the 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th Amendments, as well as the Civil and Voting Rights Acts. It's clear each of those milestones made the country more democratic than it had been. We are backsliding on a number of measures today. But then there are positions to the effect that we have never been a democracy because democracy is inherently a comprehensively-direct exercise of popular sovereignty and America never lived up to that. To me that's not more than a rhetorical device.

    Since you mention democracy: is studying the case of an authoritarian state that gives instructions to the population for which political candidates they should vote for a study of democracy in practice if the government initially does not sanction candidates it does not want people to vote for?
    Bad analogy. The correct analogy is to the study of comparative government in e.g. Europe. All those countries were, until recently and to varying degrees, democracies. But if you want to talk about authoritarian countries, they usually do and did hold elections to create the illusion of participation. In some instances, these are not even purely sham elections but work as a kind of feedback mechanism. Even that much can be described as an element of democracy.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 05-06-2020 at 07:56.
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  24. #684
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    "We decided to make that sacrifice because what we were standing up for was the American way of life," he said. "In the very same way now, we have to stand up for the American way of life."
    Here's what Christie's cryptic babble actually means in terms of Fearless Leaders plan for reopening the US economy:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...l-robert-reich

    Remove income support, so people have no choice but to return to work.
    By threatening to deny unemployment benefits, the Labor Department is forcing workers (read as all those poor bastards who draw a weekly paycheck) to choose between rolling the dice at the COVID-19 Casino, or losing their livelihood.

    Hide the facts.
    Use a deeply flawed epidemiological model that consistently under-reports both cases and deaths in order to make the situation look better than it is. And, of course, put a gag order on Dr. Fauci so that he can't contradict anything that's being said.

    Pretend it’s about “freedom”.
    When there is no choice given to people who are about to lose their jobs, their homes, and everything they've been working for most of their lives, except to take a dance with death, I'd hardly call that freedom.

    Shield businesses against lawsuits for spreading the infection.
    The icing on the Trump Hotel Truffle (as applied by The Man Who Never Smiles):

    The Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, insists that proposed legislation giving state and local governments funding they desperately need must include legal immunity for corporations that cause workers or consumers to become infected.
    "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
    With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
    ....and get to work you effin' bastards, I have an election to win come November---Fearless Leader

    Look, Trump is right about one thing, an economy as large as the United States can't be kept in limbo any longer otherwise there won't be an economy. His administration botched the initial response back in February by not taking the threat seriously and lost nearly two months that could've been spent getting hospitals and PPE stockplies prepared (and with Patient 0 now identified in California as early as the first week of February, containment was already lost). Now, the entire month of April has been wasted by the anemic role of the federal government in organizing the procurement of supplies, and expediting their dispersal. Instead, states were forced to compete with each other and pay exorbitant prices for the much needed PPE and other medical equipment.

    The lock-downs and stay-at-home orders kept hospitals from being washed away by a tidal wave of cases, but now have no more effect other than keeping new cases and deaths on a plateau line (and even that's not going to happen much longer). The situation has come down to trying to save every life possible and to hell with the economy, or open back up and to hell with whomever has to die.

    Jesus, I'm embarrassed to be called an American

    @ Monty

    The snafu (supposed) with sending body bags to the Navajo instead of medical equipment is a sad commentary on our entire treatment of Native Americans from the first day settlers got here.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 05-06-2020 at 15:06.
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  25. #685
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Seriously? I just said I reject this rigid characterization because it's not descriptively useful. Anarchists acknowledge that states exist today; few would say their philosophy demands the rejection of expertise promulgated by states.
    I am talking about the simple fact that you are looking at the performance of the ideals that would underpin an anarchic society in an archic society. Where is the meaning in that?
    Runes for good luck:

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  26. #686
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    or open back up and to hell with whomever has to die.
    There are several articles about that explain why sacrificing lives to save the economy is not possible. No one is going to go out if there are ~3000 death a day and everyone is in a makeshift hospital for six months. You either move to save both or you get neither. This administration seems to think it can pretend the issue does not exist and just keep telling people to deal with it. People can deal with it to the extent that they will be resigned to the fact that the government won't be doing anything, but they aren't going to go eat at a restaurant or engage in something that they believe will get them sick or killed.

    It is genuinely difficult to understand what the Republicans think will happen if the disease is allowed to progress mostly unchecked.

    Personally, I always thought that restaurants are a wasted cost and never go out unless it's a really special occasion. Meaning I went out once or twice a month at most. I also found it increasingly difficult to justify paying for a gym membership versus just setting up a home gym. I can always sell my equipment or stow it away. I can't do that with membership fees. I might get a professional haircut once a month, but beauty shops are a massive money sink.

    Frankly, this situation revealed how pointless an economy based purely on limitless consumption is. Stop buying stuff. You'll be happier with what you have.
    Last edited by CrossLOPER; 05-06-2020 at 20:12.
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  27. #687

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Social distancing in New York.
    https://twitter.com/AndrewBloch/stat...38868537614336

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1257814281330069504
    They blasted “Live and Let Die” while Trump walked around a Honeywell plant today in Arizona without a mask. It’s hard to believe this clip is real.
    Reminder that Trump's idiot son-in-law has been in "charge" of the federal pandemic response.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/u...ronavirus.html

    This spring, as the United States faced a critical shortage of masks, gloves and other protective equipment to battle the coronavirus pandemic, a South Carolina physician reached out to the Federal Emergency Management Agency with an offer of help.

    Dr. Jeffrey Hendricks had longtime manufacturing contacts in China and a line on millions of masks from established suppliers. Instead of encountering seasoned FEMA procurement officials, his information was diverted to a team of roughly a dozen young volunteers, recruited by the president’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, and overseen by a former assistant to Mr. Kushner’s wife, Ivanka Trump.

    The volunteers, foot soldiers in the Trump administration’s new supply-chain task force, had little to no experience with government procurement procedures or medical equipment. But as part of Mr. Kushner’s governmentwide push to secure protective gear for the nation’s doctors and nurses, the volunteers were put in charge of sifting through more than a thousand incoming leads, and told to pass only the best ones on for further review by FEMA officials.

    As the federal government’s warehouses were running bare and medical workers improvised their own safety gear, Dr. Hendricks found his offer stalled. Many of the volunteers were told to prioritize tips from political allies and associates of President Trump, tracked on a spreadsheet called “V.I.P. Update,” according to documents and emails obtained by The New York Times. Among them were leads from Republican members of Congress, the Trump youth activist Charlie Kirk and a former “Apprentice” contestant who serves as the campaign chair of Women for Trump.

    Trump allies also pressed FEMA officials directly: A Pennsylvania dentist, once featured at a Trump rally, dropped the president’s name as he pushed the agency to procure test kits from his associates.

    Few of the leads, V.I.P. or otherwise, panned out, according to a whistle-blower memo written by one volunteer and sent to the House Oversight Committee. While Vice President Mike Pence dropped by the volunteers’ windowless command center in Washington to cheer them on, they were confused and overwhelmed by their task, the whistle-blower said in interviews.

    “The nature and scale of the response seemed grossly inadequate,” said the volunteer, who spoke only on the condition of anonymity and, like the others, signed a nondisclosure agreement. “It was bureaucratic cycles of chaos.”

    The fumbling search for new supplies — heralded by Mr. Trump and Mr. Kushner as a way to pipe private-sector hustle and accountability into the hidebound federal bureaucracy — became a case study of Mr. Trump’s style of governing, in which personal relationships and loyalty are often prized over governmental expertise, and private interests are granted extraordinary access and deference.

    Federal officials who had spent years devising emergency plans were layered over by Kushner allies, working with and within the White House coronavirus task force, who believed their private-sector experience could solve the country’s looming supply shortage. The young volunteers — drawn from venture capital and private equity firms — were expected to apply their deal-making experience to quickly weed out good leads from the mountain of bad ones, administration officials said in an interview. FEMA and other agencies, despite years of emergency preparation, were not equipped for the unprecedented task of a pandemic that affected all 50 states, they said.

    But the officials acknowledged it was difficult to identify specific contracts the volunteers had successfully sourced.

    At least one tip the volunteers forwarded turned into an expensive debacle. In late March, according to emails obtained by The Times, two of the volunteers passed along procurement forms submitted by Yaron Oren-Pines, a Silicon Valley engineer who said he could provide more than 1,000 ventilators.

    Mr. Kushner’s volunteers passed the tip to federal officials who then sent it to senior officials in New York, who assumed Mr. Oren-Pines had been vetted and awarded him an eye-popping $69 million contract. Not a single ventilator was delivered, and New York is now seeking to recover the money.

    “There’s an old saying in emergency management — disaster is the wrong time to exchange business cards,” said Tim Manning, a former deputy administrator at FEMA. “And it’s absolutely the wrong time to make up new procedures.”
    “When I offered them viable leads at viable prices from an approved vendor, they kept passing me down the line and made terrible deals instead,” said Dr. Hendricks, who has since sold supplies to hospitals in Michigan and elsewhere.
    The agency’s [FEMA] career staff is filled with military veterans and disaster specialists whose careers trace the history of recent American catastrophes: Katrina, Sandy, Deepwater Horizon, Irene. The volunteers, most in their 20s, had different names in their résumés: Stanford, Goldman Sachs, Google. One had graduated from college just the previous spring. They were recruited from Insight Partners, from Welsh, Carson, Anderson & Stowe, from other investment firms and consulting companies in New York City.
    Fuck.

    The Masters of the Universe show us once again why elevating the Party of Government-Doesn't-Work to power turns government into a disaster zone and looting frenzy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    I am talking about the simple fact that you are looking at the performance of the ideals that would underpin an anarchic society in an archic society. Where is the meaning in that?
    Because this is the real world, not a Platonic ideal, which observation holds with regard to almost any political concept.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  28. #688
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    but they aren't going to go eat at a restaurant or engage in something that they believe will get them sick or killed
    But people will. Yes, large portions of the population understands that social distancing and wearing a mask out in public is the prudent thing to do. Unfortunately, there are enough people that don't give a crap (like all the idiotic protesters we see in the news) and we all know how that goes. 1 becomes 3, 3 becomes 9, 9 becomes 27, etc, etc, etc. And if D614G is indeed more contagious, those numbers get worse.

    No one is going to go out if there are ~3000 death a day and everyone is in a makeshift hospital for six months. You either move to save both or you get neither.
    If your existence relies on you going to work, you are going to go to work regardless the consequences. The alternative is losing your home or apartment, and living on the street begging for handouts. The ability to save both lives and the economy has passed. Social distancing is not reducing new infections or deaths in many places. It's maintaining a level curve and nothing more. With a serious lack of testing and people to do tracing, it will be nearly impossible to stay ahead of the virus. We have our non-existent leadership to thank for that.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 05-07-2020 at 01:05.
    High Plains Drifter

  29. #689

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    But people will. Yes, large portions of the population understands that social distancing and wearing a mask out in public is the prudent thing to do. Unfortunately, there are enough people that don't give a crap (like all the idiotic protesters we see in the news) and we all know how that goes. 1 becomes 3, 3 becomes 9, 9 becomes 27, etc, etc, etc. And if D614G is indeed more contagious, those numbers get worse.



    If your existence relies on you going to work, you are going to go to work regardless the consequences. The alternative is losing your home or apartment, and living on the street begging for handouts. The ability to save both lives and the economy has passed. Social distancing is not reducing new infections or deaths in many places. It's maintaining a level curve and nothing more. With a serious lack of testing and people to do tracing, it will be nearly impossible to stay ahead of the virus. We have our non-existent leadership to thank for that.
    I can see where you're coming from, but gosh it would have been straightforward in concept (and despite the snags, we know we can implement the middle item): shutdown, organize comprehensive cross-sectional testing, cash transfers to people and businesses so they survive during the shutdown, relax, test, trace, isolate. The West Coast and Northeast will by and large be able to carry out the program it seems, though less well and with much more expense than under other circumstances.

    If the federal government responded, even with these unforgivable delays the country would be ready to take necessary measures. When you despair that financial pressure and social deconditioning is going to force a critical mass of people back into circulation in most of the country, that is literally something the federal government could address anytime. We mustn't forget that.

    EDIT: One saving grace is that the expanded unemployment insurance lasts until the end of July. That will incentivize a lot of people to stay at home.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 05-07-2020 at 01:20.
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    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  30. #690

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    A producer named Michael interviews his friend Jacob Arabo, the founder of Jacob & Co. He's interviewing Jacob because Jacob had caught the coronavirus...

    Wooooo!!!

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