POTUS/General Election Thread 2020 + Aftermath

[ReluctantSamurai]

Continuation of the Pence Saga:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/1...lawsuit-453207

Vice President Mike Pence has asked a federal judge to throw out a lawsuit brought against him by Republicans seeking to empower him to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election.

But Pence, in a 14-page filing brought by Justice Department attorneys, said the suit shouldn’t be aimed at him, since he is who Gohmert is trying to empower. “A suit to establish that the Vice President has discretion over the count, filed against the Vice President, is a walking legal contradiction,” Pence’s brief said.

From the case filing:

Plaintiffs have presented this Court with an emergency motion raising a host of weighty legal issues about the manner in which the electoral votes for President are to be counted. But these plaintiffs’ suit is not a proper vehicle for addressing those issues because plaintiffs have sued the wrong defendant. The Vice President—the only defendant in this case—is ironically the very person whose power they seek to promote. The Senate and the House, not the Vice President, have legal interests that are sufficiently adverse to plaintiffs to ground a case or controversy under Article III. Defendant respectfully request denial of plaintiffs’ emergency motion because the relief that plaintiffs request does not properly lie against the Vice President.

These plaintiffs’ claims against the Vice President in his capacity as President of the Senate also fail to address the Constitution’s Speech and Debate Clause, which prevents the other Branches of Government from questioning Congress in connection with “legislative acts,” which have “consistently been defined as an act generally done in Congress in relation to the business before it.” United States v. Brewster, 408 U.S. 501, 512 (1972). See also supra n.1. Moreover, nothing in Ex Parte Young, 209 U.S. 123 (1908), or its progeny supports these particular plaintiffs’ novel suit to enjoin the Vice President in the exercise of his constitutional authority as President of the Senate. See Armstrong v. Exceptional Child Center, Inc., 575 U.S. 320, 327 (2015) (looking to history to understand the scope of equitable suits to enjoin executive action). To the extent the Court is inclined to address these and other issues, the House of Representatives has informed the Defendant that it intends to present this Court with a number of arguments in response to plaintiffs’ motion. In light of Congress’s comparative legal interests in the Electoral Count Act, Defendant respectfully defers to the Senate and the House of Representatives, as those bodies see fit, to present those arguments.

An amusing sidenote:

Ironically, Representative Gohmert’s position, if adopted by the Court, would actually deprive him of his opportunity as a Member of the House under the Electoral Count Act to raise objections to the counting of electoral votes, and then to debate and vote on them.

Pence probably has his bags packed for his "diplomatic trip" as the coming Trump twitter-storm against him on Jan 6 is going to be nuclear fallout....

Republicans suing Republicans......

[spmetla]

I'm glad that they overrode his veto today, should demonstrate to Trump that he really is a lame duck now. The Jan 6th confirmation of Biden should be the final nail in the coffin of his illegal hopes and dreams.

The following fortnight of whatever he does though will likely be some of the worst things a president can do, what new norms will he trample in that period will probably be worrisome. Wonder what beyond pardons for family and friends he'll do...

[Montmorency]

Interestingly, Murkowski and Manchin were responsible for putting clean energy funding priorities in the latest stimulus bill (more properly, the omnibus spending bill), which suggests Manchin won't be a particular obstacle to a Biden-esque climate plan should we ever regain a sniffable majority in the Senate (Manchin will never, for anything, support removing the filibuster if there are only 50 Dem votes in the Senate).

May God guide our history for the better in 2021.

https://twitter.com/Pontifex/status/1342802590447398915

You're Catholic?

Continuation of the Pence Saga:

Defendant respectfully request denial of plaintiffs’ emergency motion because the relief that plaintiffs request does not properly lie against the Vice President.

The Pence filing is amusingly-trenchant, but in the end his staff might as well have saved their time; every last one of these Trump suits is organized around the principle of drawing headlines and building the narrative, not legal reasoning. They might as well be scrawled in crayon.

[spmetla]

The Pence filing is amusingly-trenchant, but in the end his staff might as well have saved their time; every last one of these Trump suits is organized around the principle of drawing headlines and building the narrative, not legal reasoning. They might as well be scrawled in crayon.

Sadly this is probably going to be the longest lasting legacy of Trump's, that drawing headlines and building a narrative is more important than facts for everything outside a courtroom. It's frightening how many completely believe the narrative that Trump has built and how paralyzing it has been to the Republicans that would love to ditch Trump but fear the wrath of his mob.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Manchin won't be a particular obstacle to a Biden-esque climate plan should we ever regain a sniffable majority in the Senate

Perhaps. We'll see which way he leans when more substantial legislation involving big energy comes along...

The Pence filing is amusingly-trenchant, but in the end his staff might as well have saved their time

Well...you can't just ignore a lawsuit...

every last one of these Trump suits is organized around the principle of drawing headlines and building the narrative, not legal reasoning

Disagree...well, sort of. It's been about raising money...

It's frightening how many completely believe the narrative that Trump has built

It's going to get worse for the mid-terms in 2022. It could be catastrophic for the presidential election in 2024. When you see GOP candidates that lose by overwhelming margins claiming voter fraud, it doesn't bode well. I expect to see Republican led state legislatures, particularly in all the states Trump filed suits, to introduce legislation designed to tilt the board in their direction....

[ReluctantSamurai]

Second to last nail in the coffin:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...lection-result

A US judge has rejected a lawsuit from a Republican congressman that sought to allow vice president Mike Pence to reject electoral college votes for Joe Biden when Congress meets on Wednesday to certify his victory over president Donald Trump. The latest long-shot attempt by Trump’s Republican allies to overturn the November election result was dismissed by one of Trump’s own appointees to the federal bench, Jeremy Kernodle.

He ruled that representative Louie Gohmert of Texas and a slate of Republican electors from Arizona could not show they suffered any personal harm “fairly traceable” to Pence’s allegedly unlawful conduct and, therefore, lacked legal standing to bring the case.

The standing requirement “helps enforce the limited role of federal courts in our constitutional system. The problem for plaintiffs here is that they lack standing,” Kernodle wrote.

A hint at what's in store for 2024:

Gohmert and his fellow plaintiffs said they would appeal. In an interview with the broadcaster Newsmax, the congressman said the ruling was “an example of when the institutions that our constitution created to resolve disputes so that you didn’t have to have riots and violence in the streets, it’s when they go wrong.”

“All this stuff about it [election fraud] being debunked, unsubstantiated, those are absolute lies,” he said, without evidence. “Basically in effect the ruling would be that you got to go to the streets and be as violent as antifa and BLM [Black Lives Matter].”

"Riots and violence in the streets"...."you got to go to the streets and be as violent as antifa and BLM". Yep. Expect to see more politically motivated violence. Sooner or later there will be folks killed...

[Montmorency]

Disagree...well, sort of. It's been about raising money...

It's tomato-tohmahtoe really. Trump only raises half a billion or whatever since the election by leaning into the "steal" narrative. For Trump it's about ego management and personal benefit, which can range from collecting tithes to longshot overthrowing the government. For Republican elites it's about riding the Trump train for their own benefit and delegitimizing Democrats, though they too increasingly buy into the mythology for its own sake. The long-term effect is as you discuss.

"Riots and violence in the streets"...."you got to go to the streets and be as violent as antifa and BLM". Yep. Expect to see more politically motivated violence. Sooner or later there will be folks killed...

I've been a little surprised at the minimal post-election violence so far. Maybe Trump supporters and/or Americans in aggregate are just too passive to take the plunge.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I've been a little surprised at the minimal post-election violence so far. Maybe Trump supporters and/or Americans in aggregate are just too passive to take the plunge.

Rebellions tend to occur at the end of some crisis, as things are starting to rebuild and not during the crisis wherein folks are more focused on personal survival etc. See Davies, Gurr, etc. on Rebellion/Disorder patterns.

The conditions faced by the Trumpeteers do not rise to this level. So that vast majority will not go to the barricades.


The BLM post-Floyd flareup WAS an example. Conditions (at least prior to covid) had improved in terms of jobs etc., lessening survival worries, but the larger inequity concerns still persisted (and still do).

[Montmorency]

John Quincy Adams was an underrated president. 1828 campaign materials:

Now, “gentle reader,” prepare yourself to receive a shock, which I fear will prove more than you
can bear! Shortly after these unfortunate American Militiamen had been consigned to the earth, a peremptory order arrived from the monster Jackson, directing Col Pipkin to have them sent off immediately to him at New Orleans, nailed up in their coffins, or incur the penalty of having his head severed from his body, the first time he (Jackson) came in reach of him.—They were accordingly disinterred, and upon their arrival at head quarters—I shudder whilst I relate it! Would you believe it, “gentle reader,” this monster, this more than cannibal, Gen. Andrew Jackson, eat the whole Six Militiamen at one meal!!! Yes, my shuddering countrymen, he swallowed them whole, coffins and all, without the slightest attempt at mastication!!!!!! If you are disposed to doubt this statement, I can refer you to many of the most respectable officers, who were in service with him at New Orleans. And can you, my deluded countrymen, even think of making this horrible anthropophagian monster President of the United States? If you place him at the head of the government, what pledge can you have, that if he should at any time he displeased with his cabinet, that he will not have all four of his secretaries roasted, and eat them for his dinner!!!!

At least Republicans didn't say Hillary Clinton was literally Baba Yaga. (Though I heard we can't find Seth Rich's body because she swallowed it whole, bones and all, just like she did with her email server.)

Rebellions tend to occur at the end of some crisis, as things are starting to rebuild and not during the crisis wherein folks are more focused on personal survival etc. See Davies, Gurr, etc. on Rebellion/Disorder patterns.

The conditions faced by the Trumpeteers do not rise to this level. So that vast majority will not go to the barricades.


The BLM post-Floyd flareup WAS an example. Conditions (at least prior to covid) had improved in terms of jobs etc., lessening survival worries, but the larger inequity concerns still persisted (and still do).

Right, but that's an extreme end of the spectrum where status quo regimes get dissolved (e.g. perestroika and Soviet collapse). Why haven't there been any attacks by individuals or small cells? I can think of two reasons:

1. Shootings in many cities are way up this year, as previously observed, but they are petty street violence and not the mediatized mass shootings that have become prominent in the 21st century. In fact, there have been zero of those this year, to my knowledge. This is probably because of pandemic-related constraints on behavior that pare the target environment or otherwise problematize opportunities for attacks. On the other hand, there have still been plenty of mass gatherings this year, protests and counterprotests, including after the election.

2. Serious planned attacks have all been disrupted/dissuaded by law enforcement, such as with the plot against Governor Whitmer.
2.a. Plots against elected officials are some of the likeliest to be interdicted before fruition, so I'm not surprised we haven't seen those.


The only instance of mass violence so far (the DC street scuffles don't count) has AFAIK been the Nashville bombing, which from the information I have seen was apolitical crazy person stuff that doesn't reflect much on or from contemporary events.

[Hooahguy]

I've been a little surprised at the minimal post-election violence so far. Maybe Trump supporters and/or Americans in aggregate are just too passive to take the plunge.

Well that remains to be seen, the Proud Boys are planning violence on Wednesday.

"Trump diehards from across the country have organized their travel to Washington on 'The Donald' forum," the Beast's report states. "One of the hottest topics on the site is how protesters can bring guns to D.C., which would count as a local crime in nearly all circumstances under Washington's strict gun laws. Others have talked about breaking into federal buildings or committing violence against law enforcement officers who try to stop them from storming Congress."

One comment that received approving nods stated, "I'm thinking it will be literal war on that day. Where we'll storm offices and physically remove and even kill all the D.C. traitors and reclaim the country."

The report notes that noted Trump supporter Proud Boy Joe Biggs, boasted on Parler, "Watch out, January 6 — you ain't gonna know who the f*ck it is standing beside you."

The Beast also reports that Trump fans are discussing dressing up as Antifa protesters so the anti-fascist group will be blamed for any violence.

I plan on not leaving my apartment for anything that day if at all possible. I am also nervous about counter-protesters. If it was a large and unified counter-protest effort I'd be ok with it as the Proud boys in the past have backed down in the face of significant numbers, but from what I have seen, its been small groups counter-protesting and they get overwhelmed by fascists (which I think contributed to the four stabbings last time), so I think in this case it might be best to hang back and dont let the fascists control the narrative.

[Gilrandir]

I've been a little surprised at the minimal post-election violence so far. Maybe Trump supporters and/or Americans in aggregate are just too passive to take the plunge.

Or wiser than some squash-the-bastards here. Like I said, the electoral frenzy is dying down and people are returning to normalcy. And would return quicker if it were not for those who mentally still live on the next day after voting and are surprised that there are more adequate people around them.

[Montmorency]

Every word of what you just said was wrong.




In other news, the Georgia government appears to have leaked an hour-long recording of the president trying to shake down the governor for 11,000 Trump votes.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Or wiser than some squash-the-bastards here. Like I said, the electoral frenzy is dying down and people are returning to normalcy. And would return quicker if it were not for those who mentally still live on the next day after voting and are surprised that there are more adequate people around them.

Btw, I vote that the remaining 6 people in this forum vote to kick you out for gaslighting the state of American democracy for 4 years.