Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[EnderWiggin]

Vote: Newcomb

Read me Mr Seymour

[EnderWiggin]

better emotes
better multiquote function
chill games where people aren't mad at everyone by mid day 1 for daring to wolf read them


the org goat

Wait, was I supposed to be mad about being sussed?

Fuck. I've been doing it all wrong!

[EnderWiggin]

katze treatement of newcomb this game is pretty much a carbon copy of how he treated me as v/v in the poisoner invitational 21er afair

except he gave me d1 freepass (and i did get n1ed)


and i dont really think they'd play like this as a wolf

Kinda vibe with this read.

Also I like Katze's humour esp around the sleep wagon/etc so

[EnderWiggin]

Because I don't think Cuth/Monstr work together

Wait.

So to clarify:
You're saying you would be sus of Cuth but you don't because you think Monstr is wolf?

[EnderWiggin]

I don't. No, those are not contradictory statements.

...

Now I'm confused.

[EnderWiggin]

I've decided to remove Cuth for now cause once I started writing it out I realized my brain was jumping around too much and missed a step or two along the way

Can you explain what your actual jump was? Because ngl I have been lost on it.

[Cuthillius]

ender, do you think there are any ways in which the general consensus of the thread starkly differs from your perception of the game?

[EnderWiggin]

ikr, soz.

outside of me who else do you think is sus? maybe we can talk and I'll change my mind.

Uh lemme parse my thoughts into lists.

I dislike Ladd's treatment of me particularly. The read on me (The whole "Backwards quoting" thing) feels entirely forced and also liiiike, unrealistic.

Raskol is obvious scum because of his lack of posts.

Sunbae I was leaning townish but the whole Monstr/Cuth read feels like he realised he fucked up and backed up. Pending explanation that makes my brain do the good wobly jelly I'm going to stare at him.

Monstr feels weaksauce.

I was townreading Cape but the whole Sleep thing is making me wonder.

[Cuthillius]

i feel ender is >(>*.5)rand villagery despite also doing a lot of wolfy things

this makes me feel less cozy about some people i called villagers earlier

more on this another time

[EnderWiggin]

ender, do you think there are any ways in which the general consensus of the thread starkly differs from your perception of the game?

I'm not sure there is a general consensus.

But there are definitely a few trends I've seen which I'm not entirely onboard with.

See the scumreads I just posted.

[hollowkatt]

I was having fun memeing at the start so unless you're talking about the sharp gear change on ben idk what you're talking about harder to get into.

maybe it was that I didn't think your memes were funny.
Your first 10 or so posts are the ones I felt were "off", and that off-ness I read as "difficulty trying to get into the game"

After that you do improve so meh

[Cuthillius]

I'm not sure there is a general consensus.

But there are definitely a few trends I've seen which I'm not entirely onboard with.

See the scumreads I just posted.

it looks like the two ~consensus (given this point in the game) reads you list are ladd/sunbae v?

second seems dubious given that zack and others have suspected him

wrt ladd do you think your issues could be a result of him latching onto a specific "tell" and anchoring onto it and then your automatically suspecting him because he's pressuring you for suspect reasons? what do you think about his content outside of his push on you? do you think it's meaningful that a lot of people are v-reading him?

how do you feel about the larger-scale pushes on sunbae in the context of your main issue being that particular thing he said

why do you think him walking that back is something he'd be more likely to do as a wolf than as a villager? what are some reasons you think he could have done that there as town?

[Cuthillius]

yo hk

what's your take on the katze/newc clash

what's the absolute spiciest yeet you'd be willing to be on-wagon for if eod happened right now

does the posting of any of the people who've been less strongly locked into the game (dobby, monstr, csargo, monty, etc) stand out to you in particular? if so why

[Csargo]

maybe it was that I didn't think your memes were funny.
Your first 10 or so posts are the ones I felt were "off", and that off-ness I read as "difficulty trying to get into the game"

After that you do improve so meh

I read Ender's early posts as excited/jovial, so did you read them differently? That doesn't seem like something you'd characterize as "difficulty trying to get into the game", unless you just think it was fake? or something else?

[hollowkatt]

Uh lemme parse my thoughts into lists.

I dislike Ladd's treatment of me particularly. The read on me (The whole "Backwards quoting" thing) feels entirely forced and also liiiike, unrealistic.

Raskol is obvious scum because of his lack of posts.

Sunbae I was leaning townish but the whole Monstr/Cuth read feels like he realised he fucked up and backed up. Pending explanation that makes my brain do the good wobly jelly I'm going to stare at him.

Monstr feels weaksauce.

I was townreading Cape but the whole Sleep thing is making me wonder.

cool I can work with that.

Ok, I think sunbae is town. I think I might be the only person who thinks that but i found their early game posting very free flowing and natural. His early posts regarding the suicide bomber felt townie to me in terms of "lets do something bombastic and then relax in dvc for the rest of the game" vs "do the hard work of solving, staying alive, and pushing people".

I get that can also be read as wolfy, I think it's not though.
I also like, and jibe with, the "shield dobby d1" post he made for basically the reasons he articulated. Dobby can be super strong but also can just kinda fold to early pressure even as town, and if dobby is town he'd be an asset for sure (not like this is saying much, the entire thread is an asset tbh).

even if sunbae is wrong here:

I'm struggling to parse Cape simultaneously making a wall post about avatar reads and throwing suspicion on people for jokey posts on the first page and a half. Could be wolfy fake suspicion that doesn't flow well or could just be a villager making a shift in seriousness quickly. Maybe someone else has a better take on it.

it doesn't mean it's not a town way of thinking about things. If sun was doing hard pushes on cape maybe I'd have a different opinion but this reads like a "hey I noticed a thing, anyone else notice a thing" more than a hard push.

I officially rescind my N0 red on Raskol and want to keep him alive for today. I think he's a super easy push for later today b/c he's not posted and he'll likely struggle to catch up if/when he does start posting, but being absent is not a wolf tell for Raskol.
Being a meme filled pockety jerk is though. Just fyi.

I have no read on Ladd but probably should come up with something. Cuth I think can be town, Monstr I think can be a wolf. Mostly b/c his ISO sucks a lot and by sucks a lot I mean it is entirely too short AND filled with things that read like they're spicy for the sake of being spicy, not actually things he believes in.

[EnderWiggin]

maybe it was that I didn't think your memes were funny.
Your first 10 or so posts are the ones I felt were "off", and that off-ness I read as "difficulty trying to get into the game"

After that you do improve so meh

Well.

I found me funny.

[hollowkatt]

yo hk

what's your take on the katze/newc clash

what's the absolute spiciest yeet you'd be willing to be on-wagon for if eod happened right now

does the posting of any of the people who've been less strongly locked into the game (dobby, monstr, csargo, monty, etc) stand out to you in particular? if so why

I think katze is town, I think newcomb is leaning super hard into "newcombness" with these two posts

I think this is the part where I'm supposed to say something like, "Katze's the kind of player who lacks the testicular fortitude to poke at me like this as a wolf."



Vote: Katze

To expand on that:

I think katze falls into a group of players in this list - a relatively small one - whose experience with me falls into a range of "mostly recent-ish MU games" where they'd be likely to have internalized the fact that I pretty frequently give people town passes for poking at me in a way that I think a lot of wolves would be afraid to. Internalized it to the extent where it'd be ~somewhat likely that they'd think it was a decent approach to me as a wolf.

I also think Kat's treatment of my slot has felt way way more like poking / drawing attention than any kind of inquisitiveness / genuine sorting.

kind of like "this is a meta thing I have been known to do and nobody is doing the thing so I'm going to manufacture a situation where the thing happens and then use that to subvert the expectations" which is probably shit but I like thinking it.

The spiciest yeet I'd be willing to jump on would probs be like zack or neb, neither of which I remember anything specific about and sometimes forget that they exist in the game.

csargo I feel has been moderately townie. monstr, monty, dobby could probably all go and I wouldn't miss them at all. Monstr specifically so, see my post a few posts ago about why

[Zack]

cuth is asking too many questions

he's been moved to sightly below null

make your own content bronana

[hollowkatt]

I read Ender's early posts as excited/jovial, so did you read them differently? That doesn't seem like something you'd characterize as "difficulty trying to get into the game", unless you just think it was fake? or something else?

yeah to me they read as more forced content than anything else. I'm not sure if that's just me being weird or ender being weird. My discussions with ender though recently have given me more of a good feeling about him than his earlier posting did so maybe call him null/lean town instead of 'lets kill'

[katze]

snip

👍

currently thinking it's best for both of you (@EnderWiggin primarily) to focus on other avenues than eachother

ender: i think HK is p villagery and think your read on him is... it kinda feels like you feel obligated to have A Read there in a similar vein to how i feel when i play with 1-2 FoLers in a playerlist? i dunno. i think you're wrong, and it's souring my view on you

for game integrity reasons i dont wanna drop hints about my identity

fair enough?, i won't bother speculating further then and if i read you wrong ill blame it on you secretly being some elite player 😹

snip

@Newcomb:

i'm not so much interested in like... convincing you that you're a wolf, nor am i interested in you convincing me that i'm a wolf. obviously that's not going to go anywhere regardless of either of our alignments.

my main reason for asking you to engage with that read more was... well, two reasons, one is selfish and preflippy. the other being that i want you to lay it all out at once and i want to read it and see if i Believe that you Genuinely Wolfread Me? i don't intend on really extending it beyond me feeling that out. i don't want it to, nor do i plan to let it really eat up the thread

a) me noticing that you were talking about me in a way that looked performative vs. having a specific read or one that seemed inquisitive. I.e. just kind of waving your hand around and going "hey guys newcomb looks wolfy" type posts

i assume this is referring to post 221, maybe 144 if you want to stretch that phrasing to the limit, but idk bout that one. regardless: yeah, sure. i think it's a stylistic thing, i kinda disagree with this being A Wolftell?, and i know that isn't rly a productive argument either.

however, #159 exists, and i think that is very much so the opposite of that? from reading your response to me i'm not really surprised you never directly address that post, but i'd still like you to?

and while i'm at that, to further clarify post 221: i made that post because every post you had made on that page just... either felt surface level or hedgy or a bit of both in ways i continued to dislike from you. your two post response to hollowkatt was what sealed the deal for me, because your response to the no-execute proposal just felt insanely exaggerated (and also missed one of the bigger problems with voting no-exe) while your next post legitimately looks word for word like a post i wrote in my first mafia game ever lol. plus the two hollowkatt posts you're replying to are basically next to eachother and replying to both separately is kinda weh but i concede that this is p likely to be NAI

and yeah i could say all of this in post 221 but that's not rly how i roll and i also kind of wanted a sanity check more than anything else and if someone was like "yeah i agree" and then listed what i said in the above paragraph i'd be like "damn that's just a villager" and probably ride that clear for the entire game.

b) me being generally on the lookout for a wolf to try this kind of thing with me - poking at/around me specifically to get townread.

yeah i mean, i already flat out said that i am 100% not a wolf who'd tremble in fear seeing your name in the playerlist, and i strongly doubt you don't know that given... awkwardly motions towards the finale

but meh. part of what i said earlier to zack(iirc) was that i feel like you're relying on things that are Technically True Objectively. i read this line from you and i'm like "yeah regardless of his alignment this is probably true!" and that doesn't fill me with much confidence wrt you genuinely believing you've (as a villager) caught me in some act as opposed to me fitting a preconceived notion that you (as a wolf) can make approximately fit, i guess

[...]

Here, I'll start: right now what I'm considering a pivot point this game is cape vs. sleep. Going through the possible worlds where they're v/v, v/w, w/v, and w/w, what do you think the game looks like in those worlds, does anything really important stand out? Do you think any of those configurations are wildly unlikely?

for the time being i'm pretty much entirely willing to discount w/w

i personally think it's very likely v on sleeps side, i think it's a particular kind of village nitpickiness and i personally don't really think it comes from the mindset of "a wolf who is trying to bury a villager"... i typed out a few reasons why but i realize that at this stage of the game i don't really think anyone would ever write a wallpost along the lines of "cape is 100% lack woalf and all of these small things are damning and never done by villagers, lmao"

still believe it's pretty likely to come from a villa tho, and if sleep does end up flipping mafia i'd assume one or two of his bros at the least were already under heat and the cape case was a way to divert it or keep himself out of the fire. or both.

so that leaves v/v or v(sleep)/w(cape). personally i don't think cape has been very villagery, partially due to meta reasons - it's something i don't really feel like pursuing strongly today though because i think cape is like, blindingly villagery as town after a few phases.

i don't really know what the ~threadstate~ would look like in any of these worlds, that's not really something i'm great at and i feel like the mafia roles aren't particularly important so it's not like mafia are obligated to like, hard defend their vig or something.

my current take is that it's v/v > v(sleep)/w(cape)>>>>>w(sleep)/v(cape)>>>>>>>>w/w

[EnderWiggin]

it looks like the two ~consensus (given this point in the game) reads you list are ladd/sunbae v?

second seems dubious given that zack and others have suspected him

wrt ladd do you think your issues could be a result of him latching onto a specific "tell" and anchoring onto it and then your automatically suspecting him because he's pressuring you for suspect reasons? what do you think about his content outside of his push on you? do you think it's meaningful that a lot of people are v-reading him?

how do you feel about the larger-scale pushes on sunbae in the context of your main issue being that particular thing he said

why do you think him walking that back is something he'd be more likely to do as a wolf than as a villager? what are some reasons you think he could have done that there as town?

Nah Sunbae is more consensus w than v.

As I said tho, not really consensus reads exist, mine are only a bit out of whack with thread.

WRT Ladd I absolutely could see it. But I also think like, he's jumped onto this small thing like a bull terrier and hasn't even bothered to think deeper about it. Like he's got his excuse to push me, doesn't see any solid defense of me, so he's just happy to sit on it and exist without re-evalling.

The larger scale push on him exists but I haven't noticed anything with it that I thought was sus?

I think him walking it back would happen regardless of alignment, as he obviously didn't have a solid reason for it. But I feel like as town there would at least be an explanation of how he got there, instead of this vague "I thought about it and changed my mind." that doesn't tell us exactly how his brain jumped to that.

[EnderWiggin]

I read Ender's early posts as excited/jovial, so did you read them differently? That doesn't seem like something you'd characterize as "difficulty trying to get into the game", unless you just think it was fake? or something else?

This is why I found HK's read weird. Because it certainly felt like I was fooling around and having fun to me.

[Csargo]

yeah to me they read as more forced content than anything else. I'm not sure if that's just me being weird or ender being weird. My discussions with ender though recently have given me more of a good feeling about him than his earlier posting did so maybe call him null/lean town instead of 'lets kill'

That's not the vibes I got from those posts, but I don't know ender very well either, so I probably wouldn't notice. #72 is the only thing that Ender's posted that seemed particularly bad to me.

[katze]

yo hk

what's your take on the katze/newc clash

what's the absolute spiciest yeet you'd be willing to be on-wagon for if eod happened right now

does the posting of any of the people who've been less strongly locked into the game (dobby, monstr, csargo, monty, etc) stand out to you in particular? if so why

@Cuthillius

can you answer those three questions yourself?

[Monstrdude]

im going to slice this first post backwards, for no other reason than i want to save the part i feel strongest about for last, although all of it bothers me

okay, so, a lot of cape's early posting can be summed up as "doesn't get jokes". now, not getting jokes isn't inherently wolfy. but take note of the verbiage here - "a little odd". not only is it hedgy it stops short of actually making a call on my alignment - "odd" does not equate to "wolfy", townies can be "odd". it's a little thing but often wolves tend to avoid directly actually calling anything wolfy.

additionally he says katze's response seems "justified" - what parts of that post seem justified? it's...an obvious joke about voting "sleep" to take a nap. it's messing around, there's

again, not getting a joke is not a crime in and of itself but it doesn't seem to me like he's actually reading what is being said in a critical way

now, running back in time 5 seconds, we have another instance of cape not getting a fairly obvious joke

the problem here is he's only responding to this post with a cookie-cutter, broad brushstroke argument - "busywork". what parts of that post seem like busywork? we don't know, because cape doesn't respond to any of the content within. to me this looks like he's making reads based on form rather than content, which is again wolfy because it's a sign that he's not actually reading the game critically - if he had actually tried to engage with any of the "points" zack made in that post i'd be willing to give credit for being tryhardy even if he missed an obvious joke. but as it is, it doesn't look like he actually tried to meaningfully evaluate the stuff zack was saying, because I think if anyone puts more than two seconds of thought into reading his words they'd say "oh, this is an obvious joke".

as it is, it looks like he saw that it looked like a post by post analysis list and decided to call it busy work and shade it. he didn't stop to actually read it.

this part here is just...super wolfy? "hey guys, surprised no one is calling this wolfy, i mean i dont, but you might?". it's such a bizzre comment to make, like he's tossing out a bit of bait to see if someone will bite, but keeping his own distance from it. the problem is this: if he doesn't believe that sort of thing is a meaningful tell, why bring it up at all?

it just doesn't read like a natural thought at all. when someone doesn't think a post is alignment indicative, they typically don't talk about it. but here he's simultaneously trying to shade the post and distance himself from it. i dont get the sense this is something said by someone who is trying to find wolves.

---

"i don't see it" in response to an early wolfread push. not inherently bad in and of itself, but it is the kind of thing wolves frequently say in the earlygame - being dismissive of early wolfreads is an easy way to fake content, because all they have to do is disagree with people. wolves rarely are the type to lead a charge on someone so they'll often hold back when someone makes a stretchy case in the early game

i can sense some people probably rolling their eyes at this, and that's fine, it's a very minor point but i still wanted to discuss it because it pinged me. like i said, by itself this isn't a strong point at all because it can easily be said by a villager, but within the body of work i find it problematic.

says nothing, does nothing.

what, exactly, is there to like about this post? it's kind of generically agreeable in that it makes a point about how to play the game, and I agree that some forward momentum is preferable to a tepid, stagnant game, but it doesn't actually give me feelings on newcomb's alignment one way or the other. and again the verbiage of "in a sort of random way" is another statement that doesn't really do anything except to soften the read that follows.

---

first point, he "doesn't like" a read. but does it mean anything for ladds alignment? he doesn't bother to say. it's easy to agree or disagree with things other people say, but what is harder is to generate your own analysis and thoughts. and what we have is that he is "sort of villagery" (again, more soft language) for "actually the same reasons", which...doesn't make sense at all? it doesn't actually meaningfully address the points ladd is making. why is he villagery for mostly responding to things or "posting just to post"? it's a totally half-baked response, there's nothing in cape's posts that gives a real indicator of why he thinks ender is villagery.

This is a very pedantic sort of dismissal to ender that doesn't really engage with the substance of the argument being made at all. "you said he was putting it forward as if it was a deep read, but it was on one post so it can't be deep at all". which, okay, but he very clearly meant it as a serious read, and cape selectively cuts off the latter parts of his post where ender gets into the more elaborate parts of his thinking about how wolves sometimes try to get too serious too early and hard switch. it doesnt look like hes meaningfully evaluating or considering enders words, just blandly dismissing a point he feels is eay to shoot down. this looks like cape isnt actually trying to read neb or ender. it kind of feeds back into what i said earlier about wolves tending to spend a lot of time in the early game shooting down reads rather than trying to solve.

(fwiw, i did like nebjiamn trying to make a serious accusation early there, and i think the antsiness to move the game forward and disappointment at being engaged with is towny. i didnt really want to respond to the read at the time though because th read itself felt stretchy and it would be more useful to see how the person being accused responds to it rather than saying anything myself. i think dobbys response to it is fine for now. i dont agree with enders take that it could be a wolf play although i understand the reasoning)

this is maybe the most egregious instance of cape's hedgy verbiage - why qualify the read in this way? how can something almost look really wolfy?i can find it understandable only finding something slightly suspicious in the early game, but this just comes across like he's afraid to throw a punch. reads very unnatural. either it's really wolfy or it isn't.

that is to say nothing of how again this is an egregious misreading of katze's post - if he was actually paying attention he'd have noticed the second line talks about a "pasta" and i assume cape is at least familiar enough with the concept of "copypasta" to know what that means.

and again not getting smeone's inside joke is not a crime, but what this again demonstrates is that cape is not really reading posts critically, but selectively, picking and choosing things to comment on. he picks out the first and last lines to attack while missing the part that tells him the bottom part of the post is fake and therefore irrelevant.

---

again with the verbiage heavy on qualifiers, cape can hardly make a read without distancing himself from it

and again he can't actually bring himself to say how the post was supposed to be an "attempt at doing something". he doesn't engage with the substance at all. zack called something like 90% of the posts to that point wolfy, which is obviously absurd. i dont...get the sense cape was actually reading or evaluating that post in a meaningful way, just glossing it over and assuming it had to have been serious

Hm this a villagy post

[Cuthillius]

cuth is asking too many questions

he's been moved to sightly below null

make your own content bronana

what sort of content should i make bronana

[Monstrdude]

not really a fan of monsters posts so far

I'd probably have more to say if I was a wolf tbh but this game I'm just kinda going with it

Logging on when I can ama

[Monstrdude]

Oh god did we decide this was a tryhard game when I wasn't looking

[Monstrdude]

cool I can work with that.

Ok, I think sunbae is town. I think I might be the only person who thinks that but i found their early game posting very free flowing and natural. His early posts regarding the suicide bomber felt townie to me in terms of "lets do something bombastic and then relax in dvc for the rest of the game" vs "do the hard work of solving, staying alive, and pushing people".

I get that can also be read as wolfy, I think it's not though.
I also like, and jibe with, the "shield dobby d1" post he made for basically the reasons he articulated. Dobby can be super strong but also can just kinda fold to early pressure even as town, and if dobby is town he'd be an asset for sure (not like this is saying much, the entire thread is an asset tbh).

even if sunbae is wrong here:

it doesn't mean it's not a town way of thinking about things. If sun was doing hard pushes on cape maybe I'd have a different opinion but this reads like a "hey I noticed a thing, anyone else notice a thing" more than a hard push.

I officially rescind my N0 red on Raskol and want to keep him alive for today. I think he's a super easy push for later today b/c he's not posted and he'll likely struggle to catch up if/when he does start posting, but being absent is not a wolf tell for Raskol.
Being a meme filled pockety jerk is though. Just fyi.

I have no read on Ladd but probably should come up with something. Cuth I think can be town, Monstr I think can be a wolf. Mostly b/c his ISO sucks a lot and by sucks a lot I mean it is entirely too short AND filled with things that read like they're spicy for the sake of being spicy, not actually things he believes in.

This isn't a real thought it was one post

vote: hollowkat

[hollowkatt]

Well.

I found me funny.

sometimes that's all that matters tbh