Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[Sleep]

maybe im a sucker for recency bias but i think both rask and dobbys catchups have felt towny so far

[Raskolnikov]

Because I don't think Cuth/Monstr work together

(smh baffled on associative reads based on a lockwolf that early)

[katze]

morning

skimmed a catchup, main impression is that raskol is like, a league above the last time i played with him (swag city, he was mafia) so he's probs a villager

skipped the newcomb wolfcase because i'm kinda leaning towards not killing him today even if i think he has high enough mafia equity, for #raisins

also now that the game ended i was hosting a sorc17 on MU and cape was p largely suspected in the earlygame for iffy reasons and imo was super villagery on the day he died, mbe he was townier cuz he had a vest buuuuuut it's part of why i also kinda dont wanna kill him today either

except my vote is apparently still on him

unvote: Cape90

ill figure out where it goes later

[Dobby]

benneh's post #128 is similar to the thoughts i just expressed on Sleep, but for kind of similar reasons


By the way sorry for the pbp catchup thing i'm doing, i know it's clogging up the thread but i'm trying to make it so it consists of like, relevant stuff.

i don't like the robotic read thing on newcomb because i feel like it's a bit too simple to use as a v read thing (see p#130)

again benneh echoing my thoughts in p#131

Yeah I can. He feels stilted, like his content is forced, and that he's struggling to get into the groove of the game.
I tend to ego solve and compare what people are doing to what I'd be doing in their positions. This would tangentially apply to cape as well tbh:
If I were a wolf in this player list I'd be extremely concerned with making the towniest posts I could make and trying to fit in with the overall flow of the game so as not to get caught out immediately. Unfortunately when I do that I tend to be really obvs a wolf as I'm basically trying too hard. Ender (and Cape) feel like they're trying too hard.

The downside to ego solving is that other people are not me (I know, this is a shocking revelation) and don't necessarily react to things the same way I would. This isn't stopping me from making the read.



And before someone asks, my "no chop" vote is totally legit. This is a player list I am going to struggle to read and seeing who dies over night if we don't chop anyone might help in solving. Otherwise I'm likely going to just sheep someone I town read that I perceive is smarter than I am, or be on some weird vanity wagon at the end of the day.
So I figured I'd throw out not chopping as an option, see what people think of that, and go from there.

and yeah I'm being serious

my thoughts on this is also a tough thing to explain but i feel like there's actually some weight to it.

it's easy to get like, tunnelled in your approach of reading someone, almost confbiasing. Like. Okay, first thing i think when i read ender's post is just this, he does seem to try to force out content, and then i can easily poop out words that add to the initial case i made to make it have some weight to it. This type of read is also... Easily fakeable. It's a tool i use as a wolf, because it's an easy way to play as mafia that looks really towny, and like you've done WORK, and it's a really hard thing to identify as wolfy and push. I feel like this whole post smells of that kind of thing. Add to it the last segment which kind of is a bit hedgy to cover for eventualities where Ender who based on what i've seen now, might very well be an early chop.

So yeah my thoughts on Ender aorn if i'm trying to decide if he's faking it or it's a personality/style of playing thing, is that it seems genuine enough for now and because of it being impossible (unless you know him really well, which i don't but also lolmeta) to judge which one it is, it's also something that a legit read shouldn't be based on. And the read HK is making here is making me :fry: way more tbh.

im not gonna tldr that because it was hard enough to word and prolly still doesnt make sense.

I think monstr is fairly clearly town (i isod him out of curiosity ofc) but i dont want to talk any more about him unless he comes back or smth.


kat's post p#144 is weh as well, specifically the "if alive past d1 then :fry:", because it feels out of character and also the addendums make it a non-read tbh, idk lol i can't wrap my head around it.

i agree with like half of ladd's reads in p#151

p#158 is a cheap read from me but i don't think sunbae makes this specific type of post as wolf but i also know it's a me strat as wolf to look towny and i did it in the previous games that sunbae mentioned as well (i was town) meaning like, they're well aware of it being a tool to make people go "hey this is towny" so i take it all back, this post is nai :wowee:

i feel like most of these things im writing would lead to some cool discussion if i didnt write them a day after which is kinda sad.


just some comments on p#181 - townies can be wolfy, in fact, they're usually more wolfy than wolves if they're sorta experienced imo :p And like, looking at the post, it's not.... trying to evaluate the alignment of cape. It's trying to make a case on why cape is wolfy. And that's. Not wolfy (kekw) per se, but it's definitely something that I want to point out to Sleep so that if they're ACTUALLY trying to solve, i'd like a post naming "good" things cape has done as well, because I'm sure you'll find some.

I'm interpreting most of what you say in different ways, and it's kind of... idk, similar to the thoughts on hollowkatt i wrote above. It's too ambitiously trying to do something that falls flat because it's just too extreme in one direction. Sure, town tunnels are definitely a thing, but this, at this stage is a bit wut for me.


i've been doing a lot of dobby mafia theorizing here but there's also something to say about a playstyle where you throw out sus in a lot of directions/being the aggressor, leads to you automatically getting a central role in the direction the game takes, rather than being one taking a defensive stance. This is best done by doing it in a discrete manner. Like, if i bake in one sentence implying i've got my eyes on person x, without making it a full-blown push, person x will be more inclined to show why they're town to please the other player, and it automatically lifts the "discrete aggressor" to a bit higher role in the game hierarchy.

[Raskolnikov]

@Sleep: why? (what did u find towny?)
@katze: well not having JC using each of his posts to call me a wolf here makes my life easier why did u want to kill cape earlier?

[Dobby]

Well Sleep did come back to it. (I disagree about the read though but hey, he is better than me :p)

Personally these two posts you quoted felt different, like Zack's one is clearly a gut read (hightlighted by jokey comment on the pixels) while the second looks like more cautiously crafted, made to be able to pivot out of it. "vague guess" is already a weird wording, but adding "*Throws dart at board and misses*" feels wolfy to me.

I don't know how to express it but Zack's read feels carelessly outed, Ender's one not.

yeah they're different, but neither falls under what sleep is stating i think.

[Dobby]

ur in for a surprise

poggies

[Dobby]

@Sleep: why? (what did u find towny?)
@katze: well not having JC using each of his posts to call me a wolf here makes my life easier why did u want to kill cape earlier?

i'll probably get to it but is sleep jc? because then a lot of what i just wrote is not accurate anymore

[Dobby]

ehh, how often do you see a wolf who notices their teammate made a wolfy post, notices no one calling it out, and then makes it a point to draw attention to the post but also not push on it? it's really written in a way where he's positioned to get credit off a motnmorency w flip. not saying its impossible, but i dont really see it

but im also just not going to get deep into worldbuiding on day 1, too many conditionals and the whole thing falls apart if ur wrong on one person

mafia is basically a game of egos and i could write 10 posts about why i think a specific post of yours is wolfy and i'll bet that maximum 2 people would open up that post and read it and associated interactions and try to see if my approach to the post makes sense. It's basically a freebie for later stages if your teammate dies

[Raskolnikov]

i'll probably get to it but is sleep jc? because then a lot of what i just wrote is not accurate anymore

nope (imo). I don't think he claimed but I am 99.99% sure of who he is

[katze]

kat's post p#144 is weh as well, specifically the "if alive past d1 then :fry:", because it feels out of character and also the addendums make it a non-read tbh, idk lol i can't wrap my head around it..

i think ur reading that post wrong

it's like, i typically try to avoid pushing/publicly strongly suspecting certain players on D1 because like. ladd replied to it earlier and said my treatment of newcomb was similar to my treatment of him in the poisoner game we were v/v in, i think its close enough. i thought ladd was wolfy D1 of that game but didn't reallllly say too much about it beyond a few offhanded comments, i think at one point i flat out admitted i was pretending to townread him

and then he died n1

@Sleep: why? (what did u find towny?)
@katze: well not having JC using each of his posts to call me a wolf here makes my life easier why did u want to kill cape earlier?

fair enough with jc, lmao

still think the gap is noticeable

also i never explicitly wanted cape dead i just jumped on the wagon to see what'd happen (was in response to sleeps case which i found compelling enough to apply pressure to the cape 90)

[katze]

only dobby and benneh are allowed to open this spoiler

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

hehe poopoo

[Dobby]

I think this is the part where I'm supposed to say something like, "Katze's the kind of player who lacks the testicular fortitude to poke at me like this as a wolf."



Vote: Katze

i really want to say the katze focus on newcomb is really weird (especially with the hedgy, for me questionable stuff i pointed out earlier) and kinda wolfy in itself, but lets see how it evolves i guess

[Dobby]

i think ur reading that post wrong

it's like, i typically try to avoid pushing/publicly strongly suspecting certain players on D1 because like. ladd replied to it earlier and said my treatment of newcomb was similar to my treatment of him in the poisoner game we were v/v in, i think its close enough. i thought ladd was wolfy D1 of that game but didn't reallllly say too much about it beyond a few offhanded comments, i think at one point i flat out admitted i was pretending to townread him

and then he died n1




fair enough with jc, lmao

still think the gap is noticeable

also i never explicitly wanted cape dead i just jumped on the wagon to see what'd happen (was in response to sleeps case which i found compelling enough to apply pressure to the cape 90)

i think thats how i interpreted that post though

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

poopoo indeed

btw do i need to hyperlink to make the postnums link the actual post because thats not going to happen

[Winston Hughes]

Winston, is it OK if I TR you because you posted that joke about you wife?

no, absolutely not

[katze]

i think thats how i interpreted that post though

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

poopoo indeed

btw do i need to hyperlink to make the postnums link the actual post because thats not going to happen

well you specifically said "if alive past d1 then :fry:" which i dont really think is accurate but i might have just misread what you read that as (since i thought you thought i was saying 'if theyre alive d2 they're mafia')

it's more like, in most games if newcomb is in the playerlist and is town then hes p fuckin likely to die n1, if i suspect him d1 then it's arguably counterintuitive for me to really talk about because like. he's probably dying if im wrong and say nothing but if im wrong and tunnel it then it might just warp the game around us in a way that's really bad for the game

idk, it's a thing i do most games so i don't rly care if you agree or disagree with it

also yeah i think u need to hyperlink to get the effective same as typing p#[num] on MU

[Dobby]

Not a super impactful read but I do think if cape = w and especially if zack also= v then Sleep's like never ever a wolf. Being the second person to jump on this stuff after zack, while showing a pretty big awareness of cape's position in the thread - especially that zack kind of jokey townread him - gives him like the perfect ultra sweet opportunity to double down on a bus or pre-bus, instead he's got a very natural post here where he's more focused on the reactions to cape instead of laying out the problems he has with the post. As w/w with cape here he's really really gonna want those problems on the record, and not as like the 4th or 5th person to jump on it.

would be very ballsy to post that as w/w yes but if youre referring to the big wall case thing as natural etc then nah i kinda strongly disagree

[Winston Hughes]

Winston, is it OK if I TR you because you posted that joke about you wife?

also, it wasn't a joke

and... oh shit she's reading over my shoulder

everybody hide

[Raskolnikov]

no, absolutely not

correct answer Mr McDuke

[katze]

also, it wasn't a joke

and... oh shit she's reading over my shoulder

everybody hide

tell her i said hi

[Raskolnikov]

also, it wasn't a joke

and... oh shit she's reading over my shoulder

everybody hide

yeah but it made me laugh because we are in for the same joyfull moments (she is still around right?)

[Dobby]

well you specifically said "if alive past d1 then :fry:" which i dont really think is accurate but i might have just misread what you read that as (since i thought you thought i was saying 'if theyre alive d2 they're mafia')

it's more like, in most games if newcomb is in the playerlist and is town then hes p fuckin likely to die n1, if i suspect him d1 then it's arguably counterintuitive for me to really talk about because like. he's probably dying if im wrong and say nothing but if im wrong and tunnel it then it might just warp the game around us in a way that's really bad for the game

idk, it's a thing i do most games so i don't rly care if you agree or disagree with it

also yeah i think u need to hyperlink to get the effective same as typing p#[num] on MU

the post is serious despite a majority of it being a copypasta - i suspect newcomb atm and my general approach to players like newcomb (the first line) is to ignore that for at least day 1 becasue they're likely to be NKed by wolves if town+townread - but uh. when i look at the playerlist it's like 90% players who that'd apply to so i'm kind of uncomfortable with it

you state it yourself that because of the playerlist it's kind of a null argument, aren't you? also squeezing in the part about the pasta feels like, idk, i have a hard time seeing how you're trying to make a serious argument out of this

[Raskolnikov]

gonna take a break from the thread to make dinner etc... so you won't enjoy my impactful posts for a while. For reference, I am wanna vote within {Ender/Sunbae/Monty} rn. Not sure I posted about Sunbae already but can maybe expand later.

[Zack]

I guess my biggest issue with NewComb is absolutely the way his reads don't seem to stick at all.

I don't understand what this means

[katze]

you state it yourself that because of the playerlist it's kind of a null argument, aren't you? also squeezing in the part about the pasta feels like, idk, i have a hard time seeing how you're trying to make a serious argument out of this

(yes thats the point thats why im willing to push on newcomb d1) dont think this argument will help either of us, so fair enough

[Dobby]

the latter

I would not dare converse with you in anything other than the highest quality Spongebob gifs

i hate that this made me laugh

[Sleep]

just some comments on p#181 - townies can be wolfy, in fact, they're usually more wolfy than wolves if they're sorta experienced imo :p And like, looking at the post, it's not.... trying to evaluate the alignment of cape. It's trying to make a case on why cape is wolfy. And that's. Not wolfy (kekw) per se, but it's definitely something that I want to point out to Sleep so that if they're ACTUALLY trying to solve, i'd like a post naming "good" things cape has done as well, because I'm sure you'll find some.

i mean, hm, that is more or less true to an extent. the thing is, im a very instinctual/gutty player who atruggles with more in-depth analysis, when i do something like that im trying to express the things that pinged mein an explicable form. i believe that direct pressure is a useful tool for reading people, because it forces reactions both from the person being pressured and other observers. i think if the read is expressd in a tepid, half-hearted way ("oh it's just a gut read"), that is significantly more likely to get ignored and i dont want to be ignored.

now the danger of pushing so aggressively like this is getting confirmation biased, and im well aware of that, ive fallen into that trap many times before. so sort of recognize what ur saying to me here. however, i dont really want to...force myself into looking at his posts and telling myself how they could be villagery. what i am doing is trying to question him and see if i can find reasoning that seems villagy from him, and remaining open to hearing the perspective of others who are reading him as a villager, and trying to understand why. right now im about to take a look at his iso in the game katze mentioned to see if its simiar (altho i have grumbles about meta i wont get into here)

im not going to lie, i still find a lot of the stuff hes done wolfy but right now im in the process of broadening my view of the game rather than continuing to harp on cape

[Sleep]

cape in this other sorc games seems less awkward/more solvey even early on, he has real meat to his posts that im not really getting here, i am tunneled ig, im not going to keep harping on it tho

[Dobby]

i'm very comfortable with calling cape strong v at this point and just making sure to look back in a day or two

i kinda agree with this fwiw and i think cuth's posts have looked pretty towny for cuth

👍

currently thinking it's best for both of you (@EnderWiggin primarily) to focus on other avenues than eachother

ender: i think HK is p villagery and think your read on him is... it kinda feels like you feel obligated to have A Read there in a similar vein to how i feel when i play with 1-2 FoLers in a playerlist? i dunno. i think you're wrong, and it's souring my view on you



fair enough?, i won't bother speculating further then and if i read you wrong ill blame it on you secretly being some elite player 😹


@Newcomb:

i'm not so much interested in like... convincing you that you're a wolf, nor am i interested in you convincing me that i'm a wolf. obviously that's not going to go anywhere regardless of either of our alignments.

my main reason for asking you to engage with that read more was... well, two reasons, one is selfish and preflippy. the other being that i want you to lay it all out at once and i want to read it and see if i Believe that you Genuinely Wolfread Me? i don't intend on really extending it beyond me feeling that out. i don't want it to, nor do i plan to let it really eat up the thread



i assume this is referring to post 221, maybe 144 if you want to stretch that phrasing to the limit, but idk bout that one. regardless: yeah, sure. i think it's a stylistic thing, i kinda disagree with this being A Wolftell?, and i know that isn't rly a productive argument either.

however, #159 exists, and i think that is very much so the opposite of that? from reading your response to me i'm not really surprised you never directly address that post, but i'd still like you to?

and while i'm at that, to further clarify post 221: i made that post because every post you had made on that page just... either felt surface level or hedgy or a bit of both in ways i continued to dislike from you. your two post response to hollowkatt was what sealed the deal for me, because your response to the no-execute proposal just felt insanely exaggerated (and also missed one of the bigger problems with voting no-exe) while your next post legitimately looks word for word like a post i wrote in my first mafia game ever lol. plus the two hollowkatt posts you're replying to are basically next to eachother and replying to both separately is kinda weh but i concede that this is p likely to be NAI

and yeah i could say all of this in post 221 but that's not rly how i roll and i also kind of wanted a sanity check more than anything else and if someone was like "yeah i agree" and then listed what i said in the above paragraph i'd be like "damn that's just a villager" and probably ride that clear for the entire game.



yeah i mean, i already flat out said that i am 100% not a wolf who'd tremble in fear seeing your name in the playerlist, and i strongly doubt you don't know that given... awkwardly motions towards the finale

but meh. part of what i said earlier to zack(iirc) was that i feel like you're relying on things that are Technically True Objectively. i read this line from you and i'm like "yeah regardless of his alignment this is probably true!" and that doesn't fill me with much confidence wrt you genuinely believing you've (as a villager) caught me in some act as opposed to me fitting a preconceived notion that you (as a wolf) can make approximately fit, i guess



for the time being i'm pretty much entirely willing to discount w/w

i personally think it's very likely v on sleeps side, i think it's a particular kind of village nitpickiness and i personally don't really think it comes from the mindset of "a wolf who is trying to bury a villager"... i typed out a few reasons why but i realize that at this stage of the game i don't really think anyone would ever write a wallpost along the lines of "cape is 100% lack woalf and all of these small things are damning and never done by villagers, lmao"

still believe it's pretty likely to come from a villa tho, and if sleep does end up flipping mafia i'd assume one or two of his bros at the least were already under heat and the cape case was a way to divert it or keep himself out of the fire. or both.

so that leaves v/v or v(sleep)/w(cape). personally i don't think cape has been very villagery, partially due to meta reasons - it's something i don't really feel like pursuing strongly today though because i think cape is like, blindingly villagery as town after a few phases.

i don't really know what the ~threadstate~ would look like in any of these worlds, that's not really something i'm great at and i feel like the mafia roles aren't particularly important so it's not like mafia are obligated to like, hard defend their vig or something.

my current take is that it's v/v > v(sleep)/w(cape)>>>>>w(sleep)/v(cape)>>>>>>>>w/w

kat wrote a wall and that makes me want to instinctively townread it

but it's a decent wall, especially the part about #221 does help me see where kat is coming from, i just have an issue with like "i dislike every post" because. yea.h

[Newcomb]

would be very ballsy to post that as w/w yes but if youre referring to the big wall case thing as natural etc then nah i kinda strongly disagree

I'm not, I was referring to 119 which is a short response to you.

I don't think the wall was at all natural, that's my issue with it.