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  1. #1
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Is this the "Greater Evil" theory of politics? Ironically the same was said by left-dissident opponents of Hillary Clinton in 2016, though they used the term "blackmail" rather than "moral compulsion." Also somehow the language of pro-Trump right-wing respectability-seekers of the same election.
    I have no idea, never heard of it.

    Far more simple: I am right wing.

    .'. parties that seem to operate from my core philosophy and enact governance in ways I like will get my vote, whereas those who work from a philosophy I reject and use it to offer governance i dislike will not get that vote.

    If there was some egregious moral failing (above and beyond the normal in politics), such that it would override philosophy and action then any person should reflect on that. I do not believe we have reached such a point.

    Voting labour is inimical to my interests, cake does not override this.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 04-27-2022 at 07:58.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  2. #2
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    The chancellor unveils plans to claw back ?8bn from Covid fraud. I wonder if that will include investigating Tory peer Lady Mone, who got Downing Street to mark her husband's company down for VIP status even before it was formally registered as a company, which then made 200% profit on PPE which was not used (bought substandard PPE from China for ?50m, was paid ?150m by government for it). A Channel 4 (?) investigation found packs of said PPE, bought by NHS for ?1000, on ebay for ?10 (it was ?50 when I looked).

    This government specialises in channeling tax money to its friends and family. But I suppose this corruption and incompetence is democratically endorsed, so all these arguments hold no water. Because democracy excuses everything. You don't need to be competent when you have democracy behind you. You don't need to follow the law when you have democracy behind you.

    Edit: autocorrect changes pound signs to question marks.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 04-27-2022 at 17:21.

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Was there any reason for revealing military secrets on Ukraine during a visit to India?

    Boris Johnson ‘tempting evil’ by revealing Ukrainian soldiers trained in Poland

    A former head of the Polish army has accused Boris Johnson of “tempting evil” by revealing that Ukrainian soldiers were being trained in Poland in how to use British anti-aircraft missiles before returning with them to Ukraine.

    Gen Waldemar Skrzypczak, also a former junior defence minister, complained that a loose-lipped prime minister had revealed too much to the Russians and that his remarks risked the safety of the soldiers involved.

    Speaking to Polish tabloid Fakt, Skrzypczak said that Johnson had revealed “a military secret” and that “bad words are on the lips” when he gave details of the Ukrainian training plan on a trip to India last week.

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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Was there any reason for revealing military secrets on Ukraine during a visit to India?

    Boris Johnson ‘tempting evil’ by revealing Ukrainian soldiers trained in Poland
    Our previous President had him Trumped on cavalier disdain for operational security -- but for now BoJo can shine forth.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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  5. #5
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Suella Braverman has advised that legislation to override the Northern Ireland protocol would be legal because the EU’s implementation of it is “disproportionate and unreasonable”.
    Thus says the country's top lawyer. Does this mean, in her learned opinion, that individuals in the UK can do the same with the UK's laws too?

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    I mean, that depends on how it is done, doesn't it?

    https://twitter.com/AlexanderHorne1/...35518662754304

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Horner advisor to the @LordsEUCom
    I hope that, when we get to see the detail, the Government is simply proposing to use Article 16 of the Protocol to (legally) disapply some practical aspects which are not working, rather than seeking to resile from the entire deal.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  7. #7
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    An expert view on what the UK might be aiming to do with the Northern Ireland Protocol:
    https://mostfavourednation.substack....t-does-the?s=w

    Most Favoured Nation: What Does the UK Want Changed?

    With the caveat that this list is mainly based on conversations and me piecing together disparate bits of information that has been briefed to friendly journalists/leaked to unfriendly journalists, these are the changes I think the UK wants to see made:

    Reverse the burden of proof. As it stand, the default for goods entering Northern Ireland is that they are treated as if they are entering the EU’s customs and regulatory territory unless (in the case of customs duties) the importer can prove they will remain in Northern Ireland. The UK wants to flip this, so that all goods entering Northern Ireland are treated as if they will remain in the UK, unless there is a clear and obvious risk of onward movement to the EU. But how to achieve this in practice?

    Expand the remit of the “not at risk” regime. At the moment, goods entering Northern Ireland can, subject to terms and conditions, avoid EU tariffs if they can demonstrate they will remain in Northern Ireland. Given this is acceptable for fiscal purposes, there is no reason, the UK argues, the same approach could not be used for the purpose of avoiding regulatory controls too. Food products entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain could avoid checks so long as they are sold to Northern Irish consumers. Of course the UK wants the remit of the scheme to be as wide as possible, and drastically simplified too. At its most permissive, the UK would also like the EU to actively identify the product types – for example citrus fruit – it is most concerned about from a bio-security point of view, and target checks accordingly.

    And you know what, I’m kinda with the UK on this. In practice, the extension of the not-at-risk process has already happened: the grace period allowing for chilled meat preparations to enter Northern Ireland from Great Britain (yes, sausages) is only available to supermarkets in Northern Ireland, on the basis you have a clear, local, point of sale and heavily monitored supply chains. If you can prove it will stay in Northern Ireland, and it is not something that poses a major threat to EU biosecurity, then what’s the problem?

    General expansion of trusted trader. Trusted firms should face minimal [see: zero] checks and bureaucracy; compliance would be policed via audit.

    Use existing commercial data to identify product movements instead of customs declarations. At the moment, traders moving goods into Northern Ireland from Great Britain have to make customs declarations via the Trader Support Service. The UK wants to drastically simplify this process by reducing the amount of information asked for. It also wants to remove and the requirement for firms to work out the product codes (HS codes) of goods (something that is actually quite time consuming and difficult) by allowing them to rely on existing commercial information, which the UK argues already contains the required details (or at least the details can be deduced from what is there). Removing the need for HS codes has symbolic importance from a UK perspective, in that it removes one of the visible representations of the internal border.

    I think this is all theoretically possible. And the EU has engaged with the UK on reducing the amount of information asked for. But I’m not sure the UK and the firms operating across the internal border are quite ready to implement such a scheme. For one it would require linking the disparate internal systems of various companies with, presumably, the TSS. Not at all impossible, but it would require investment, testing, and refining (and for the UK to share live data with the EU). Also a lot of EU-UK trust. But definitely possible in time. [Note: one of the reasons these sorts of innovative approaches are more feasible in this context than other trade borders is because the internal UK border is unique: while some rules might be different on each side, the UK remains the legal authority, allowing it to more effectively police compliance on both sides.]

    Grace periods/easements. The first thing to say is that the protocol as applied in practice is nothing like the protocol as first envisioned. It has already evolved quite dramatically (most notably on medicines). There include a grace period that allow, for example, chilled meat preparations to continue entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain (under set circumstances) despite EU rules not allowing the import of chilled meant preparations and unilateral UK breaches of commitments that exempt small parcels being sold by businesses in Great Britain to consumers in Northern Ireland from customs formalities.

    The UK wants these grace periods and derogations to be made permanent, arguing that, in comparison, some of the EU proposals to improve the protocol would in fact increase the burden on traders. And I’ll let you in on a secret: everyone, including on the EU side, knows that these grace periods and derogation are not going anywhere. The UK is never going to stop [mainly hypothetical] Great British sausages from entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain. This is all kinda a phoney war.

    Fix VAT. Look, this is one of those things I don’t really understand. Export/import VAT is ridiculously complicated, and the Northern Ireland Protocol approach all the more so. If you want detail, go speak to Richard Asquith or someone like that. But the UK wants the UK VAT regime to apply in Northern Ireland.

    UK standards. Northern Ireland is de facto within the EU single market for goods. This means goods placed on the Northern Irish market have to conform with EU regulations and standards. The UK wants businesses in Northern Ireland to have a choice, to either conform with UK regulations and standards (if placing the product solely on the UK market) or EU regulations and standards (if selling into the EU). Brexit hipsters might recognise this as Liechtenstein-style parallel marketability.

    In the UK’s favour, at least for product standards, it is correct to say that such an approach is manageble without needing checks on the land border. Within the EU, compliance with European standards is rarely (not never) enforced at the border, rather legal liability for ensuring conformity is placed on the importer and policed in-market. However, knowing that the UK is 90 per cent of the time going to have the same underlying standards as the EU, given we have retained our membership of the European Standards Organisations and y’know gravity, there is a more obvious solution to ensuring the uniformity of the UK market: the UK could just, as a whole, continue accepting that products produced to EU standards and certified for the EU market are fit to be placed on the whole UK market … as the UK is currently doing anyway. Problem solved.

    TRQ reform. I might be the only person who cares about it, but I’ll mention anyway. Importers of food in Northern Ireland currently cannot use UK tariff-rate quotas (either in free trade agreements or autonomous) because the UK tariff regime can only be used if the difference between the applied UK tariff and EU tariff is less than 3 percentage points. Because the in-quota UK rate (usually zero percent) is compared to the EU out-of-quota rate (usually a bazillion percent) the difference is always greater than 3. I wrote about just how this came to be so complicated last year.

    I’m not quite sure what the new UK proposed fix for this is, but I assume it is along the lines of if you can prove it stays in Northern Ireland then you should be covered by the UK tariff regime (essentially scrapping the 3 percentage points criteria).

    Standstill. The UK does not want any new EU rules coming into force in Northern Ireland. It is already the case, per the Northern Ireland Protocol, that brand new EU rules do not automatically come into force in Northern Ireland and have to be discussed in the joint committee, but updates to the existing rulebook do … and the existing rulebook is quite large. Divergence would then be managed on a case-by-case basis over time.

    I think the UK is pushing its luck a little here. There are clear benefits to the Northern Ireland being in the EU’s single market for goods and I’m not sure why gradually eroding this over time would be helpful or put NI in a strong position to attract investment.

    Replace subsidy rules with TCA rules. Pretty much what it says: the UK wants the EU subsidy rules in the protocol to be replaced with the provisions included in the trade and co-operation agreement.

    Get rid of ECJ. The UK wants to get rid of the ECJ because it doesn’t feel good and it is a bit embarassing (no Northern Irish business group has raised this as an actual issue). Something I think is overlooked in this discussion is that the presence of the ECJ in the protocol actually serves as a safeguard against discrimination for Northern Irish businesses selling into the EU.

    A complete rewrite. And of course all of the above requires the Protocol to be rewritten.

    I’ve probably missed something, but the above is – to my understanding – what the UK is asking for. I’m broadly in favour of anything that improves the life of businesses and a lot more sceptical of the asks that are basically the UK having a retrospective temper tantrum. But the big question is, even if the EU agreed to 75% of the above … would it be enough for the DUP?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  8. #8
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The chancellor unveils plans to claw back ?8bn from Covid fraud. I wonder if that will include investigating Tory peer Lady Mone, who got Downing Street to mark her husband's company down for VIP status even before it was formally registered as a company, which then made 200% profit on PPE which was not used (bought substandard PPE from China for ?50m, was paid ?150m by government for it). A Channel 4 (?) investigation found packs of said PPE, bought by NHS for ?1000, on ebay for ?10 (it was ?50 when I looked).

    This government specialises in channeling tax money to its friends and family. But I suppose this corruption and incompetence is democratically endorsed, so all these arguments hold no water. Because democracy excuses everything. You don't need to be competent when you have democracy behind you. You don't need to follow the law when you have democracy behind you.

    Edit: autocorrect changes pound signs to question marks.
    An update on this. Lady Mone is indeed being investigated by the police. There were other companies with connections to Tory MPs who also got billions (up to 9 figure sums for individual companies) in non-tendered Covid contracts. The New York Times reported 33 billion in dodgy contracts.

  9. #9

    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    I have no idea, never heard of it.
    More elaborately, the idea of "why settle for the lesser evil?"

    .'. parties that seem to operate from my core philosophy and enact governance in ways I like will get my vote, whereas those who work from a philosophy I reject and use it to offer governance i dislike will not get that vote.

    If there was some egregious moral failing (above and beyond the normal in politics), such that it would override philosophy and action then any person should reflect on that. I do not believe we have reached such a point.

    Voting labour is inimical to my interests, cake does not override this.
    Of course those results are the rub. Against left-wing dissidents (cf. also French elections) the counter-argument was that effective abstention or defection is contrary to their stated principles in result. With the right that may or may not have been the case, the "not" being the more troubling scenario as we saw that it implies illiberalism. But no citizen is released from the duty to appraise results and interests according to the conduct of government in fact, not according to a high level of philosophical abstraction. "I am X, so I support X party" is not inherently satisfactory.

    Thought you were a classical liberal* though.
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  10. #10
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    More elaborately, the idea of "why settle for the lesser evil?"



    Of course those results are the rub. Against left-wing dissidents (cf. also French elections) the counter-argument was that effective abstention or defection is contrary to their stated principles in result. With the right that may or may not have been the case, the "not" being the more troubling scenario as we saw that it implies illiberalism. But no citizen is released from the duty to appraise results and interests according to the conduct of government in fact, not according to a high level of philosophical abstraction. "I am X, so I support X party" is not inherently satisfactory.

    Thought you were a classical liberal* though.
    More relevantly, it doesn't make sense to hold the opposition, who do not make the laws, to higher standards than the government, who do make the laws. The point of liberalism, in its original form, was to radically reassess the establishment by asking difficult questions of the establishment. By holding the opposition to higher standards whilst constantly excusing the government, one goes against the fundamental basis of liberalism, by having a tendency against changing the establishment. It is the very definition of conservatism (Toryism even).

    In related news, the government has passed a Bill that gives it power over the previously independent Electoral Commission. So in addition to having a government which disregards the constitution, media which will disseminate and support its lies, and voters who will back it no matter what, the government now has formal control of the electoral system too. One of the proposed measures is to address a problem which the Electoral Commission said does not exist in any meaningful form, by implementing measures that are known to discourage opposition voters, in a manner which would have disqualified me from voting in several previous elections.

  11. #11
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    "I am X, so I support X party" is not inherently satisfactory.

    Thought you were a classical liberal* though.
    You are correct; it is not a satisfactory position.

    You are again correct; i don't find my politics maps in any way neatly onto modern british political parties. This too is unsatisfactory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    More relevantly, it doesn't make sense to hold the opposition, who do not make the laws, to higher standards than the government, who do make the laws.-
    I do not do this. This is not a position I hold. It is not a position I have claimed to hold, nor too is it a reasonable inference from discussion around the topic.
    The worst offence I can be guilty of is in failing to hold the gov't to a higher standard than the opposition - which you clearly would like me to do.
    You persist in misrepresenting what i say, why do you do this?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 04-30-2022 at 23:44.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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