Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[katze]

already addressed: i have seen many times before that mafia have avoided taking the "obvious" route in f3. this is an unconvincing argument.

the thing is: you're not doing ANYTHING. because the win condition for mafia is SIMPLY TO NOT GET VOTED. AND YOU ARE PLAYING LIKE SOMEONE TRYING TO NOT GET VOTED. if you were town you woulf be concerned with ACTUALLY TRYING TO SOLVE THE GAME but YOU ARE NOT

i'm lazy and i've already talked about that so instead of further arguing that, how about i twist you a tale:

katze is mafia who worked their ass off to bring this game to F3. katze then does "nothing" in this F3 when they are so close to victory?

if you're gonna go the "fatigue" then i urge you to read literally any w!katze lylo, lmfao. i'm fully capable of playing a phase out if it's what i need to do, because i know what i need to do and am so close to my goal.

here? i mean. at this point i'm pretty sure it's you, and if it's not then whatever because i don't think you're ever not voting me with how tunneled you are rn. but i've already explained why a w!katze would have some pretty obvious paths to victory and i am taking none of them. even if you want to say "oooo you're not taking hte obvious path because it's obvious" there's still paths? do you think that i'm a wolf who has no idea what to do?

im gonna remind you about my ego and rep

yes im going there.

so your argument is again somehow that you would make an unexpected kill that benefits you while I...would make a kill that puts me in a situation with 2 people who have been townreading each other??

YOU ARE NOT APPLYING THE SAME STANDARDS OF REASONING TO ME AS YOU ARE TO YOURSELF. THIS DOES NOT COME FROM A TOWN MINDSET.

i swapped over to pushing you because hollowkatt's posts started to giv me pause and make me think he really believed the stuff he was saying. he didnt react to me like how i think a mafia would react. that was very evident from how i responded to him at the time. it didnt have to do with you. i have gotten more aggressive with you because your reasoning continues to be extremely faulty and i believe it is my job to press on that to expose the inconsistincies in your logic

what

i fully believe that w!you was forced to kill dobby last night. i always vote you over dobby. HK might vote dobby over you but i'm evidently alive so you can push me in F3 so alas

im applying my standards to myself because you're literally asking me to talk about why im a villager, half of these things i'm "not applying to you" i've written out and the other half i have probably considered and not typed out

[katze]

revisiting this: this is a mentality slip. katze'd shrieking frustrated outrage at me bringing up monstr does not come from a town mindset.


this same exact thing has happened to me before in a game: a member of the mafia flipped out and started abusing me when i was doing absolutely nothing. and then in late game after that player's slot had finally flipped, i brought it up as a reason that i was town, the remaining mafia member was OUTRAGED that i brought it up even though it was self-evidently clearing. but i didn't DO anything. monstr is the one who was abusive toward ME.

this is because katze is salty that monstr's meltdown self-evidenly spewed me town. the whine of no fairrr is leaking through here.


if katze were actually concerned about solving the game at all, if she were a townie with even a single shred of conscience, she would ask herself "wait, would partners really interact that way?". but instead she reacted this way. because she is scum who needs to be able to push me and is upset that i'm using it as a defense.

I am bringing this back. You might find it unpleasant. I don't care. It is absolutely necessary to consider this if you actually want to play this game to win.


I want both of you to look at this with a straight face and tell me monstr reacts this way to a partner. he was getting upset and AtE'ing at rask, and I came in, told him to calm down, and he responded by SAYING HE HATES ME AS A PERSON. that is LITERALLY NEVER PARTNERED.


If you are town and conclude this is plausibly w/w, you are an absolute joke.

im "outraged" because it's very obvious that monstr had a mental breakdown in thread and you're using this as a means to push agenda

but sure, let's play this game: this is plausibly w/w and if you're a villager you're free to flame the shit out of me in post for thinking it. i full believe in that moment he didn't care about who was on the other side of the text he was saying, and your alignment was irrelevant to him being angry at you because "dude relax" does not compute with the brain having a moment

if this is something that is so cut and dry, then have none of the dead villagers commented on it being a good look for you? we've all agreed that it looked good for raskol, so why not you?

[katze]

also katze you need a fucking turbo alt holy fuck

i do have a turbo alt, makaze just automatically merged accounts that were public alts of eachother and now katze and gamer are one

blame mak

town katze has absolutely shit reads... in terms of vote history on MU. Looked at the vote history of their last 8-10 MU games and their town vote history is full of green on green, some green on red. katze wolf games are much more accurate, but some of that is voting for cred and/or voting to provide cred (see katze on alexa in champs finals for example of the latter).

This game katze has shit reads and their vote history is full of green on green

im being bullied for being bad and i cant argue against it :(

[katze]

which one of you was trying to save Ladd and which one was trying to kill newcomb

vote: ladd

vote: newcomb

we were both trying to kill newcomb but i had about nothing to say about ladd at that eod

[hollowkatt]

i do have a turbo alt, makaze just automatically merged accounts that were public alts of eachother and now katze and gamer are one

blame mak



im being bullied for being bad and i cant argue against it :(

it's not my fault you're submissive and bullyable

also fork makaze :sadangry:

[hollowkatt]

we were both trying to kill newcomb but i had about nothing to say about ladd at that eod

yes but one of you was legit voting newcomb and the other was voting a townie when their pack mate was a wagon.

vote: Newcomb

fingers crossed but i do not like any other wagon at all really

vote: ladd

vote: newcomb

Vote: Ladd

vote: ladd

[katze]

there was some post gira made earlier along the lines of him suspecting me for taking his newcomb suspicions and pushing them, but i was pushing newcomb for way longer than he ever was and in this current enviroment i think it's v likely he was just trying to have his cake (getting newcomb killed) and eat it too (getting away with it and killing me)

:sparkleshrug:

[hollowkatt]

I know I never really got to the weirdish questions I asked in terms of a post, but I feel like Katze was more accurate in their self-assessment than Sleep was. I find Sleep to be more of a follower during D1/D2 than going their own way / being an hero.
I say this because while they were off doing their own thing they were not vociferous in their pushes in a way that I would describe as heroic.


I won't be here for actual EOD, probably won't even be here for the last 2 hours very much.
Unless something drastically changes though I've made my decision, it's vote: Sleep.

[Sleep]

monstr/dolby

zack gave me shit for calling dolby a villager while everybody else in the world was like "hehe dolby obvious wolf"

also thought monstr was town before the Incident and defended that on D1 as well




and ender wasn't dead in the water on D2? you soft defended him a dozen times while people were going both directions there

okay so

why is that scum-indicative for me but not for you katze

why are you putting this double standard here

[Sleep]

hollokatt legit isn't reading a goddamn word i said, is he?

[Sleep]

every single game i play it's the exact same thing

i always get the cold shoulder

no one ever actually cares for anything i have to say


thats how ive been treated nearly this entire game

i never even so much as get the regard of "sleep i see what you're saying but i think you're wrong because xyz". it's just "no sleep you're dumb and wrong shut up".

different games, different people, different sites. always the same thing happens, every time


am i that bad at communicating? why does this shit always happen to me?

[katze]

okay so

why is that scum-indicative for me but not for you katze

why are you putting this double standard here

are you reading a word im saying

[Sleep]

like why even play if this is the way people are going to treat me? if my posts get glossed over every time and i get given the brush-off?

[Sleep]

are you reading a word im saying

i read the one post i responded to im a bit frustrated right now so i havent read it all in order

[katze]

i think it's bad for you because you soft defended ender from active suspicion 100 different times when he was in a weird middle ground of "having hard defenders but also a lot of people kinda suspecting them"



i think it's good for me because i know how i play better than i know how you play and i know it's something that w!me would look at and be like "lol just get the cred and run' because by then i'd know i need to play for F3

instead i legitimately thought that dolby had made reads that a wolf were unlikely to make, that monstr had a few small things in his favor, etc etc

instead of defending ender i defend dolby?

[Sleep]

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...=1#post5434788

v!katze depressed at the state of the game feeling demotivated and burnt out?

never heard this one before

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...ress-of-Vienna

i mean hell in this game i wasn't even depressed at the gamestate i was just burnt out and lazy for irl reasons

but i guess if you're going to ask me to link you games you'll only refer to the ones that support your argument, right?

okay again the idea that you are town simply for being umotivated is on its face unconvincing. i hope you can understand why.

there's a massive difference between me performatively saying "lol just yeet me and sheep my reads" and me literally telling sunbae i believe im the optimal vest target?

i think you can easily make that statement performatively, it doesnt prove a whole lot

this isn't worth arguing about because it won't change your mind if i'm wrong on you, my point was that i'd probably have killed HK instead of like, raskol or some shit

i'm completely content leaving harder clears alive if they're not doing anything to disrupt me, killing holyflare in finale for example (not really a great one because he was also consensus town but i was also trying to undermine his townread status and plausibly could have)

we almost kept hornet alive for F5 in the finale as well despite them being considered an IC

other examples include... mashes. which i'm not going to pretend mean much. and dead homesite games. wee

i again dont really buy this

[katze]

god this would be so much easier if i had MU isoing

or even FoL isoing as much as people shit on it

100 post isos woat

[Sleep]

i think it's bad for you because you soft defended ender from active suspicion 100 different times when he was in a weird middle ground of "having hard defenders but also a lot of people kinda suspecting them"



i think it's good for me because i know how i play better than i know how you play and i know it's something that w!me would look at and be like "lol just get the cred and run' because by then i'd know i need to play for F3

instead i legitimately thought that dolby had made reads that a wolf were unlikely to make, that monstr had a few small things in his favor, etc etc

instead of defending ender i defend dolby?

katze why cant i just have been WRONG? why is that SUCH A HARD CONCEPT? what do i GAIN from defending ender in that spot?

[Sleep]

hk went back to playing this more like mafia who has the game in the palm of his hand than town

[katze]

katze why cant i just have been WRONG? why is that SUCH A HARD CONCEPT? what do i GAIN from defending ender in that spot?

you COULD HAVE BEEN and if you're a villager then you WERE but i think you're MAFIA and i will capitalize RANDOM WORDS to emphasize it

i think HK is townier than you

your approach to me right now is...

honestly you feel like marl which might actually be a townpoint but you're grasping at literally everything to call me a liar and like

man what the fuck am i supposed to do if you're town

[hollowkatt]

hollokatt legit isn't reading a goddamn word i said, is he?

tbh as soon as things got testy I tuned both of you out and just started reading old posts and looking at vote counts and having a think.

[Sleep]

you COULD HAVE BEEN and if you're a villager then you WERE but i think you're MAFIA and i will capitalize RANDOM WORDS to emphasize it

i think HK is townier than you

your approach to me right now is...

honestly you feel like marl which might actually be a townpoint but you're grasping at literally everything to call me a liar and like

man what the fuck am i supposed to do if you're town

if you're town you need to recognize that i'm being real here in what i'm saying

and that i'm frustrated because i'm getting MLed when i was townread by everyone and yet you seemingly don't have a single care for the words i say

and even if i'm tilting at windmills and totally wrong in trying to tear you down i am still town

[Sleep]

tbh as soon as things got testy I tuned both of you out and just started reading old posts and looking at vote counts and having a think.

cool, very cool


i love to play the game of mafia, where people make decisions without reading your posts

it's so fun

[katze]

if you're town you need to recognize that i'm being real here in what i'm saying

and that i'm frustrated because i'm getting MLed when i was townread by everyone and yet you seemingly don't have a single care for the words i say

and even if i'm tilting at windmills and totally wrong in trying to tear you down i am still town

i meaaaan

it's kinda hard to view these attacks on me as genuine but

give me a bit im making bad decisions such as "playing a turbo" and "eating" and ill get back to you

[Sleep]

The absolute basic minimum of respect in a mafia game ought to be "Yes, I have read your posts and considered what you have to say"


And consistently I am not given that treatment in games.

[hollowkatt]

cool, very cool


i love to play the game of mafia, where people make decisions without reading your posts

it's so fun

I've read your posts, I just declined to wade into the muck.

[Sleep]

i meaaaan

it's kinda hard to view these attacks on me as genuine but

give me a bit im making bad decisions such as "playing a turbo" and "eating" and ill get back to you

why is it not genuine? because (fypov) i am wrong?



i lashed out because it felt like you didnt have a single care for what i said and werent actually trying to evaluate me

[Sleep]

I've read your posts, I just declined to wade into the muck.

could i receive the BARE MINIMUM of acknowledgement?

[hollowkatt]

The absolute basic minimum of respect in a mafia game ought to be "Yes, I have read your posts and considered what you have to say"


And consistently I am not given that treatment in games.

decidedly untrue but ok I guess?
I read the posts. I thought the AtE/Emotional posting was wolfy as fuck. It felt to me like as soon as I was no longer on the table and you committed to that that you turned on Katze and instead of pushing them like you pushed me you got upset with how they were treating you and that fueled the posting.

Then as soon as I start looking at vote counts again you make the statement that I'm playing like I've got F3 in the palm of my hands which I very much do not.

I believe you're an imminently competent and skilled player who has played a very good game, I just don't believe it's a town game. That's all there is to it.

[hollowkatt]

responding out of order because it was the first thing i saw

yes that is exactly what happened and its really not hard to tell

i came into today mostly convinced it was you but the way you responded to me was confusing because it didnt seem like scum and tthe posts you made all explaining your mindset all made sense to me

and there's this thing that happens in mafia games sometimes, don't know if you've ever experienced it, but sometimes you get deep in an argument with someone and you're flinging crap at them and going all out and then you just get this feeling that you're wrong and the other person might be town after all and that they believe all the things they are saying and that's what happened with you

uhh speak for yourself on that account because i have been feeling incredibly pressured


well go ahead whenever you're ready

I'm ready.
I don't think town Sleep does that. Here's why: Even though votes aren't locked and even though the day is the full 48 hours coming into the thread like that, dropping a very large case that looks damning on the surface you are relying entirely on me actually being the last wolf.

You said yourself you were shook when I responded the way I did and that's why you shifted your read on me. I don't think town comes into the last day of the game with the intention of burying someone before being rock solid sure on that persons alignment.
If I'd responded poorly and katze buys into the HK wolf narrative town loses this game. The entire onus of town winning this game relies on how well I respond to your push and I feel like town doesn't take that risk.
A wolf though does.