17er Saints and Martyrs

[GeneralHankerchief]

I had similar thoughts about you. But Zack was sure logic was a wolf and he was counter to a wolf wagon and didn't die so it makes me think logic might be a hit now

I'm a bit confused about this point. Who didn't die? Logic? If you mean Logic, we have no concrete evidence of there being a vig in the game, so Logic not dying doesn't signify anything.

If you mean that why the wolves didn't kill him, because he's still a possible miselimination and there are a number of strong villagers out there who were right yesterday, plus a claimed PR in Murska running around? Frankly if Logic was the only kill last night I would have assumed that the vig hit and that the mafia kill was blocked in some way.

I certainly don't follow the logic that Logic being alive means he's gonna flip red.

[Wisdom]

Bweh, I thought Zack was so threadspewed v that he would be the obvious doc target, but I assume the protect claim might have messed that up in one way or the other.

Off wagon nk implies that Syn was quite bussed*, but I’m willing to let Ender go right now. Ender felt like someone Syn pushed for the sake of pushing someone rather than a distancing attempt.

*If the wagon was pure wolves would be desperate to nuke it. However, if it was *not* pure then it's easier for the bussing wolves to hide in it, as long as it doesn't shrink enough to make it weird that they are alive.

Still got my eyes on Visor tbh. Not sure if Dya would go out of their way to protect a wolf mate who clearly didn't have his heart in the game, leaning v there.

[Jan]

I considered protecting Zack but chose to go with Rask instead due to wagonomics

Fair choice.

You have a couple of days to proof yourself (unless cc-ed). Good luck.

[Wisdom]

Vote: Syn

did seriously entertain voting Logic just for clarity and forcing the issue since I know this is gonna be a thing basically until he flips

As far as I know GH wouldn't bus like this.

Town:
Ender
GH
Dya

[dyachei]

Bweh, I thought Zack was so threadspewed v that he would be the obvious doc target, but I assume the protect claim might have messed that up in one way or the other.

Off wagon nk implies that Syn was quite bussed*, but I’m willing to let Ender go right now. Ender felt like someone Syn pushed for the sake of pushing someone rather than a distancing attempt.

*If the wagon was pure wolves would be desperate to nuke it. However, if it was *not* pure then it's easier for the bussing wolves to hide in it, as long as it doesn't shrink enough to make it weird that they are alive.

Still got my eyes on Visor tbh. Not sure if Dya would go out of their way to protect a wolf mate who clearly didn't have his heart in the game, leaning v there.

Numbers alone mean syn was bussed I think but not sure where to look there

Gh logic was a cw to a wolf and a fairly easy miselim if he's a villager but he didn't die. It makes me think we had w/w wagons. I'd be less convinced if it were someone that isn't usually run up but it was logic specifically. That coupled with zacks read makes me think logic is a wolf. Its not one reason. It's that even with syn doing nothing I would expect wolves to get people to vote with Zack on logic if logic were a villager instead of losing a wolf, even if syn was a weak pr wolf role

[Jan]

Bweh, I thought Zack was so threadspewed v that he would be the obvious doc target, but I assume the protect claim might have messed that up in one way or the other.

Off wagon nk implies that Syn was quite bussed*, but I’m willing to let Ender go right now. Ender felt like someone Syn pushed for the sake of pushing someone rather than a distancing attempt.

*If the wagon was pure wolves would be desperate to nuke it. However, if it was *not* pure then it's easier for the bussing wolves to hide in it, as long as it doesn't shrink enough to make it weird that they are alive.

Still got my eyes on Visor tbh. Not sure if Dya would go out of their way to protect a wolf mate who clearly didn't have his heart in the game, leaning v there.

The last 3 votes were very late pile on.

Rask was both the initiator as well as the important vote (I think).

I am the hell busser (similar to what wiggles did in the J-anon game).

[Murska]

I understand the argument for Logic, but also, do wolves here really go out of their way to protect each other? I'm used to the default being that wolves mostly ignore wagons on other wolves, bussing if they need to but rarely actively countering them.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Numbers alone mean syn was bussed I think but not sure where to look there

Gh logic was a cw to a wolf and a fairly easy miselim if he's a villager but he didn't die. It makes me think we had w/w wagons. I'd be less convinced if it were someone that isn't usually run up but it was logic specifically. That coupled with zacks read makes me think logic is a wolf. Its not one reason. It's that even with syn doing nothing I would expect wolves to get people to vote with Zack on logic if logic were a villager instead of losing a wolf, even if syn was a weak pr wolf role

Ok fair enough, but I just straight up disagree so I'm not sure how much can be gained by continuing this line of discussion.

As far as me personally, assuming that Murska is telling the truth, I'm working under the theory that the wolves wanted to clear out someone in the Rask/ladd/Zack group that was universally townread and went with Zack because they figured he was least likely to be protected because he wasn't on Syn. This theory does have an unanswered question in why they simply just didn't go for Murska instead, but I'm not super interested in finding out why right now. I don't think there was a grand plan in terms of managing wagonomics or anything like that, they just wanted to kill a good villager and get a voice out of the thread that they thought they could get away with doing.

onward

[Wisdom]

Gth on Syn wagon

Ender v
Ladd v
Jan w
Raskolnikov v
GH v
Arctic w
Murska v

[Wisdom]

Gth on Syn wagon

Ender v
Ladd v
Jan w
Raskolnikov v
GH v
Arctic w
Murska v

If correct there's only one wolf off wagon

1 in Logic/Visor/Vanta/Gemma

[Wisdom]

If correct there's only one wolf off wagon

1 in Logic/Visor/Vanta/Gemma

Actually I have no read on Benneh or Hally either.

[Murska]

Unless circumstances change today somehow, I'll probably claim that I'll be sitting on Rask all night every night until dead.

[Jan]

Villager
Raskolnikov
Ender

Benneh
Wisdom

Hally
Ladd

Dyachei

GH

Vanta Black
Gemma

Logic
Arctic

Visor
Wolfier

Claimed stuff: Murska

This is my first draft and I have very little confidence.
I have some vague reasons to v-read everybody but Visor.

And I rarely v-read visor unless his actions are fruitful and he was the one pushing the cw yesterday.

I wanted to make a list assuming I could clear some people and have a managable poe, but this does not make a lot of sense.

I might require some red string to solve this game.

[Raskolnikov]

Sup, driving rn will post more in like 8 hours.

Tx Murska. Rip Zack.

Ladd lock clear, leaning villa on GH now. Dya villa. Agreed Logic looks more and more like a hit.

Visor is a wolf, discuss.

Vote: Visor

[Raskolnikov]

Lol the xpost with Jan.

Su l8r gamers

[dyachei]

If logic is a wolf there's a high chance gh is too.

And visor might be but I'm not sure there yet. I'd like to hear more about the wolf reads therr

[Wisdom]

Vote: Visor
Lessgo

[Jan]

If logic is a wolf there's a high chance gh is too.

And visor might be but I'm not sure there yet. I'd like to hear more about the wolf reads therr

Switch the question.
Do you have a single reason why visor is a villager?

[dyachei]

Switch the question.
Do you have a single reason why visor is a villager?

no but I dont really have reasons he's a wolf either. Just that he could be one. Where i have reasons I think logic +/- GH could be wolves

[Jan]

no but I dont really have reasons he's a wolf either. Just that he could be one. Where i have reasons I think logic +/- GH could be wolves

I might have to look at logic again.

Thought he was way more into the game compared to the game I hosted. Which made me lean villa on him yesterday.
Syn flip might give some helpful context.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Still struggling to see the rationale for the mafia team to kill Logic if he's town. If you NK him, as town, last night, you are giving up:

- a mislim (the dude can and has gone down in the past despite the shield being placed)
- D1 wagon clarity for the town (likely going to happen anyway, but right away?)
- a shot at silencing a strong voice
- a shot at silencing a correct voice
- a shot at a claimed PR

Still doesn't make sense to me, not seeing how him being alive is outing. Annoyed at myself for spending a third post on this. Gonna laugh if I go back and reread and realize that I had it all wrong yesterday anyway.

inb4 "GH is doing that thing wolves like to do where they provide accurate info on the rationale for their night actions in an attempt to sound smart/reasonable"

[dyachei]

Still struggling to see the rationale for the mafia team to kill Logic if he's town. If you NK him, as town, last night, you are giving up:

- a mislim (the dude can and has gone down in the past despite the shield being placed)
- D1 wagon clarity for the town (likely going to happen anyway, but right away?)
- a shot at silencing a strong voice
- a shot at silencing a correct voice
- a shot at a claimed PR

Still doesn't make sense to me, not seeing how him being alive is outing. Annoyed at myself for spending a third post on this. Gonna laugh if I go back and reread and realize that I had it all wrong yesterday anyway.

inb4 "GH is doing that thing wolves like to do where they provide accurate info on the rationale for their night actions in an attempt to sound smart/reasonable"

that's not what Im saying at all.

Im asking why his wagon yesterday d1 didn't die since he was counter to a wolf and very mis-elimmable

[ladd]

Still struggling to see the rationale for the mafia team to kill Logic if he's town. If you NK him, as town, last night, you are giving up:

- a mislim (the dude can and has gone down in the past despite the shield being placed)
- D1 wagon clarity for the town (likely going to happen anyway, but right away?)
- a shot at silencing a strong voice
- a shot at silencing a correct voice
- a shot at a claimed PR

Still doesn't make sense to me, not seeing how him being alive is outing. Annoyed at myself for spending a third post on this. Gonna laugh if I go back and reread and realize that I had it all wrong yesterday anyway.

inb4 "GH is doing that thing wolves like to do where they provide accurate info on the rationale for their night actions in an attempt to sound smart/reasonable"

Dya meant why wolves did not try to mislunch logic, not nk him

Its just a misunderstanding on the word kill

[GeneralHankerchief]

that's not what Im saying at all.

Im asking why his wagon yesterday d1 didn't die since he was counter to a wolf and very mis-elimmable

oh lol

well, Zack wasn't on him in practice (he was on me) but he was very much on Logic in spirit

[Jan]

Now that I'm caught up, I can give my full, current accounting of my reads.

Towns (unsorted, and of varying confidence levels)
GH
Dya
Gemma (now fully disentangled from Ender)

Town-leans
Jan
Ladd
Wisdom

Scum-leans
Murska
Ender
Zack
Vanta

Anyone not mentioned is either a null or I forgot you were playing.

I think the villa list is ~fine (bad is gh is a wolf ofc)

I don't think the wolf list is, but mine likely had 2/4 at the time as well .. so can't really complain

Gemma that hight is a weird outlier as either alignment.

[Hally]

rip bronana

gj on syn gang

immediate thought is at least one of logic/visor is ~always a wolf

[dyachei]

rip bronana

gj on syn gang

immediate thought is at least one of logic/visor is ~always a wolf

why the two of them always?

[Logic]

@Logic

Imagine - you are Moist! Trusty slightly wet Sidekick!

Tell me who in this game is playing the following characters and please add reasoning (can be short) based on this game:

Dr Horrible
Penny
Captain Hammer
Bad Horse
Bait
Switch

Serendipity: My wife already calls me Moist because my hands are always damp.

Bait and Switch are mentioned in dialogue only. So I'd say they are Vanta and Murska due to lack of actual presence.

I know Captain Hammer is an antagonist of the story, but I hesitate to equate him to one of my scumspects. Maybe he's best described as a town-siding wolf? I don't have a perfect name to correlate. But let's say GH for now. I'll elaborate later.

Bad Horse: most obvious villain. right now this is dya. Maybe dya is remembering incorrectly, but GH has, without fail, read my alignment wrong as a wolf. In the past, it is so consistent that a Logic flip before GH where he was wrong meant he was scum (and no one but me ever called him out on it.) So because of this, and dya saying that "GH gets Logic's alignment right regardless of his own" I am pointing the finger at dya. Regardless if I'm right here, I think this paints a strong "not w/w" between GH and Dya.

Penny kinda suffers from being a "prize to be won" prop-characters with little agency of her own. The typical tropes of such a character is somewhat mitigated in Dr Horrible, but having the protagonist share a bunch of traits with incels, if not being an incel himself, colors the perception of the Penny character. Which is a shame, because she's got some good songs. Penny is definitely town, obviously so, but somewhat naive. I don't think that describes anyone here.

And leaving the best for last, we have Doctor Horrible. Being the protagonist (but definitely a bad guy) is probably a wolf-siding villager. Based on absolutely nothing, let's call this Visor. (The mirror of GH? Wait, what?)

[nebjiamn]

initial thoughts were ender looks ~OK from syn stuff but ill admit its pretty light

my rask ladd and jan town reads are much stronger than before and they were already pretty high

mildly think GH looks decent too

i think visor is probably a wolf but curious to hear why ladd thinks (thought) he was paired with syn yesterday if syn flipped wolf cause i didnt see anything connecting in his iso other than just being wolfy

[nebjiamn]

oh also i mentioned something about not thinking visor could be w/w with logic yesterday and when i reread overnight i thought that was a dumb take

i don't think its likely but its still very much a possibility b/c visor was not nearly as hard on logic as i remembered