17er Saints and Martyrs

[dyachei]

Oh yeah that list from benneh reminds me that ar tics eod yesterday was good because it felt like he and I were the only o es fighting back against a benneh flip until Ben himself arrived

[nebjiamn]

I don't really think this is gh playing this poorly so he has to be a wolf.

But logic feels like a wolf pr to me

ya

if he's a villager i legitimately have words for him after the game and given i am not the only one with these issues (zack) i agree/am hopeful he's just wolfing rather than willfully ignoring/straight up missing a relatively obvious game state in front of his eyes for 2 (real life) days straight

[GeneralHankerchief]

Can you give me your current POE?

So I guess the major question is Logic's alignment right now. If he's a wolf, game is still reasonably easy. If he's town, then y'all are in for some fun times on d5 after both he and I have flipped green. On balance, I still think his posts are coming from town!Logic, but that's gotta be looked at in the context of Visor's treatment of him on both gamedays (with the obvious caveat that Visor was posting just to post at EOD2). It was pretty inconsistent and fitting of whatever narrative happened to be more convenient for him at the time, and I feel like this is more likely to indicate that Logic was a partner. So Logic *will* be in my POE, but luckily I don't think him flipping one way or another shifts any major paradigms aside from possibly Vanta, so I don't need to do major conditionals or anything.

After Visor flipped, Jan was my major tinfoil. If he was a wolf with Visor fighting for his life yesterday, that was the way to play it, to test the waters to see if the benneh CFD could actually be pushed through before committing (once ladd showed up Visor was always dying imo), but that's a moot point now.

We will be taking dya out of the POE (I still believe that there was exactly one in the dya/Visor pair just from treatment of Syn and Visor flipped red) as well as benneh (very villagery approach to EOD).

Remaining POE, unordered:

Ender
Wisdom
Rask
Murska
Logic
Arctic
ladd
Vanta
Hally
Gemma

Murska is still claimed PR. Him not dying N1 was somewhat more questionable than him not dying N2 imo, Visor's flip being what it was basically gave the wolves a free shot at whoever they wanted and I feel like they had to have a PR hit on Jan or something. So I'm still not concerned about Murska yet.

For the same reasons as above, I am still not concerned about Rask or ladd (among others lol). Now, if somebody like dya buys it tomorrow night, that's when we start to revisit the Rask/ladd/Murska set, but not before.

Remaining POE, unordered:

Ender
Wisdom
Logic
Arctic
Vanta
Hally
Gemma

Two in this seven. I don't think I can outright take anyone else out at this stage without doing more rereading (haven't since last EOD), so this is just about tiering and ordering it.

I think Gemma needs to either hardclaim or disavow the soft. There's wiggle room, because that soft may not actually be a soft. Yes, Visor did try to get her killed yesterday, but imo his main focus was benneh and Gemma was a pivot after benneh didn't quite crest high enough, so I'm not taking that into account unless and until I revisit those interactions. Until Gemma posts more, all the damning stuff said about her D1 and D2 still applies: her posts are very surface level, don't really display any cohesive progression, and are disjointed to the point of being actively wolfy in addition to just being Not Villagery.

I hated Arctic's posts on an emotional level last EOD but the next step up has them probably being good, and also I hated Arctic's posts in the moment when I had Visor as town and, uh, that flip changed things lol. He's probably fine but want to reread.

Wisdom is a blind spot. I think if I got one of my townreads wrong yesterday it was Wisdom, it was always kind of a lower quality than some of the other reads I was putting down. I think Wisdom and Vanta would be my immediate targets if Logic flipped green, pending reread. I just don't have a super good handle on Wisdom's overall gamestate view right now, and that's something that needs to be corrected.

I see a lot of posts about Ender being on the outer edge of the POE and straight up I have no thoughts there rn so I'll take a look at some point today.

Hally, being vouched for by benneh but is no longer on the same level as benneh for me pending reread. Need to recheck that.

Vanta, good tone, good vibes, must be super frustrating for wolves to deal with lol. Still conditional on Logic for me, kind of went after Logic in a way that gives off w/v equity on D1. I also think the way Visor treated Vanta was similar to the way he treated Logic, very inconsistent/depending on what the threadstate called for at the time being, which adds more fun to this.

(yes these last few paragraphs were purposely surface level because I don't have any hard conclusions yet, that's what the full dayphase is for)

So let's order it out and say:

Out of the POE for the time being, not ordered:
Rask
ladd
benneh
dya
Murska

---------------

Probably ok, do due diligence
Hally
Arctic

Blind spots, priority rechecks
Vanta (not w/w with Logic imo)
Ender
Wisdom

Shocker of shockers, my bottom two
Logic
Gemma

[nebjiamn]

i wanna pre-enptively post a 'what were wolves doing?' response to anyone who might wonder that re: visor's actions yesterday and why wolves can still just be as plainsighted/openwolfing as visor/gh were

i have wolfed with visor before. one of the best things about wolfing with him is he is down to do openwolfy shit and pair himself to his teammates and just hope he gets away with it. he has no problem 'selling out' on a shield on a wolf bro or voting out one of the most obvious villagers ITG that will almost certainly cause instant repercussions for him the following day (see: his push on me yesterday!)

so all that to say, exactly what visor and GH were doing last night, i have done myself with visor as wolf bros several times because we both know a) theres always a chance villagers misclear you after despite being openly pro-wolf because villagers tend to be dumb and b) even if it outs you, visor enjoys the actual part of 'wolfing' and just being obvious

i.e. visor is the kind of wolf who will do things for fun if he feels boxed in and isn't afraid to spew himself wolf in the process if it means he he can mislunch his friend or an obvious villa or something. i've done this with him in a hydra game (dya/visor were wolves with me/bop), super smash bros, and probly a few others

and i think GH is obviously capable of doing the same with visor, so when the question comes around like "what were wolves doing day X??" -- the answer doesn't have to be more complicated than "wolfing and having fun." please do not at any point clear GH for refuge in audacity or whatever the hell that thing arctic called it is

[GeneralHankerchief]

I don't really think this is gh playing this poorly so he has to be a wolf.

But logic feels like a wolf pr to me

Is your Logic wolf PR read something that I'm able to interact with, or is it primarily based on stuff I can't really rebut like "GH and Visor are/were protecting him"?

[dyachei]

Benneh is always town here BTW. Like always. Visor very much tried to get him elimmed

If it's not gh and logic I think we need a close look at ender

[dyachei]

Is your Logic wolf PR read something that I'm able to interact with, or is it primarily based on stuff I can't really rebut like "GH and Visor are/were protecting him"?

It's entirely to do with the fact that logic is very easy to miseliminate but didn't go over instead of syn despite it being close. I need to look at eod wagons again to see where visor was but I think him being off wagon also indicates we had w/w wagons and Iirc he was on gemma

[nebjiamn]

It's entirely to do with the fact that logic is very easy to miseliminate but didn't go over instead of syn despite it being close. I need to look at eod wagons again to see where visor was but I think him being off wagon also indicates we had w/w wagons and Iirc he was on gemma

i think you nailed it with logic kind of being spewed wolf based off visor's eod1 where he ignored logic, someone he already claimed to have posted poorly, to just run up murska as opposition to syn when logic was already partially voted. woulda been an easy wagon to join and relatively low accountability given like, me, zack, plenty others were pushing on logic already

if that was intentional of visor then a retroactive 'well played' i guess

[ladd]

Ill be here in a bit

Dont think i need to post much anyway, ill be mostly reading

[nebjiamn]

Ill be here in a bit

Dont think i need to post much anyway, ill be mostly reading

you are next up on the chopping block if you don't finally deliver a wolf bub

[ladd]

you are next up on the chopping block if you don't finally deliver a wolf bub

Guess i am outed for being alive d3

[Wisdom]

Fwiw I think I was the first to push Visor and me wanting to shrugyeet him should clear me ^^

[Wisdom]

Also yay my trend to end up on a wolf d1 remains!

[dyachei]

vote: logic

[Arctic]

Apologies for leaving like that, wanted to test Visor a bit but then life happened. Well done yeeting him!

uh huh

[nebjiamn]

Fwiw I think I was the first to push Visor and me wanting to shrugyeet him should clear me ^^

no you werent and you lost all credibiliity with this when you pushed on me and tried to get me lunched with a lolcatting wolf anyway

it looks good you had at least 2 wolves in your list of 4 (gh/syn/visor/jan) but your follow up on that to push one of me or hally yesterday is quite bad

[nebjiamn]

I don't like that I vibe with this. I also agree that gh/logic are both probably town and considering how the heat died on him after I/ladd (mostly ladd) protected him implies wolves are okay with the current gamestate anyway so pushing Logic isn't important right now.

Ergh did I just talk myself into thinking Visor could be town? I have told myself all game that he's going to come online in EoD and unyeet himself.

BAH

No but I could go Ben/Hally maybe

this is not 'testing visor a bit' lol

[Arctic]

I guess the argument that visor didn't try to kill logic at eod1 despite repping a scumread there and instead going for murska is moderately convincing

I would still rather kill GH based on posting though

I feel like it doesn't really matter though and we're going to mow down these two regardless of anything

[Arctic]

this is not 'testing visor a bit' lol

yeah that seemed like bullshit, but she was telling the truth about d1, and her push on visor then seemed fine to me

and i think it might be a little silly to distance from visor there while syn is getting run up, i feel like the priority for wolf!her would have been bussing or distancing from syn and/or logic

[nebjiamn]

I don't like that I vibe with this. I also agree that gh/logic are both probably town and considering how the heat died on him after I/ladd (mostly ladd) protected him implies wolves are okay with the current gamestate anyway so pushing Logic isn't important right now.

Ergh did I just talk myself into thinking Visor could be town? I have told myself all game that he's going to come online in EoD and unyeet himself.

BAH

No but I could go Ben/Hally maybe

I guess the argument that visor didn't try to kill logic at eod1 despite repping a scumread there and instead going for murska is moderately convincing

I would still rather kill GH based on posting though

I feel like it doesn't really matter though and we're going to mow down these two regardless of anything

we are

its tempting to go logic first because then we can rub it in GH's face that either his read was wrong or his play as w/w/w with visor/logic/syn fell so flat on its face

or he can make fun of us while we lunch him anyway

[Arctic]

yeah that seemed like bullshit, but she was telling the truth about d1, and her push on visor then seemed fine to me

and i think it might be a little silly to distance from visor there while syn is getting run up, i feel like the priority for wolf!her would have been bussing or distancing from syn and/or logic

(this is me preflipping logic wolf for no reason)

[nebjiamn]

yeah that seemed like bullshit, but she was telling the truth about d1, and her push on visor then seemed fine to me

and i think it might be a little silly to distance from visor there while syn is getting run up, i feel like the priority for wolf!her would have been bussing or distancing from syn and/or logic

i ctrl f'd visor on her iso and saw nothing from day 1 besides him in a poe list so if there's something else please link me

my point stands that any credibility gained from that push is likely null and void but ill read it anyway

[Arctic]

i wanna pre-enptively post a 'what were wolves doing?' response to anyone who might wonder that re: visor's actions yesterday and why wolves can still just be as plainsighted/openwolfing as visor/gh were

i have wolfed with visor before. one of the best things about wolfing with him is he is down to do openwolfy shit and pair himself to his teammates and just hope he gets away with it. he has no problem 'selling out' on a shield on a wolf bro or voting out one of the most obvious villagers ITG that will almost certainly cause instant repercussions for him the following day (see: his push on me yesterday!)

so all that to say, exactly what visor and GH were doing last night, i have done myself with visor as wolf bros several times because we both know a) theres always a chance villagers misclear you after despite being openly pro-wolf because villagers tend to be dumb and b) even if it outs you, visor enjoys the actual part of 'wolfing' and just being obvious

i.e. visor is the kind of wolf who will do things for fun if he feels boxed in and isn't afraid to spew himself wolf in the process if it means he he can mislunch his friend or an obvious villa or something. i've done this with him in a hydra game (dya/visor were wolves with me/bop), super smash bros, and probly a few others

and i think GH is obviously capable of doing the same with visor, so when the question comes around like "what were wolves doing day X??" -- the answer doesn't have to be more complicated than "wolfing and having fun." please do not at any point clear GH for refuge in audacity or whatever the hell that thing arctic called it is

yeah i mean i didn't know this is how visor plays as mafia, but i did know that some people do just play as mafia like this, including me, and this is why i had the thought that wolves were just outting to try and kill you
it's always possible to talk yourself out of things if you kill the sensible people and have.. the people who were wagoning you alive in the coming days

i am definitely not clearing anyone for refuge in audacity, especially not GH
i guess the thing that comes closest to that is ender because his eod does feel TWTBAW not in the sense of being too blatantly pro-wolf but in the sense of "i have no idea what he was trying to actually do there"

[Wisdom]

no you werent and you lost all credibiliity with this when you pushed on me and tried to get me lunched with a lolcatting wolf anyway

it looks good you had at least 2 wolves in your list of 4 (gh/syn/visor/jan) but your follow up on that to push one of me or hally yesterday is quite bad

Yeah I mean
From this page I'm still wolf reading you so no regrets there, in addition to Visor refusing to move onto you despite calling you a wolf.

You and Hally have been blindspots this game, with a slight plus on Hally for feeling chill when interacting. You shading me for 1) Not talking/focusing on you + 2) Ending on you feels like a desperate need to get me into the PoE. It's bad, sure, but how is it wolf motivated? What would I gain, as a wolf, from moving away from ~always dying Visor while also never caring about pushing Gemma/Logic (I still read both as town). There's no way I'd play that poorly as wolf.

[Arctic]

After some sleep I realized that the first one who said they found me hard to understand were likely to be town. Mostly due to it being a kind of rude thing to do and a wolf wouldn't know if it's the TMI spooking or if it's a personality thing.

Turned out that the first person was Zack, so I guess he's pretty much lock town by now, but it's not very helpful (I thought it was GH who were first, which would have been way more helpful).

Joining in on that (GH, Visor) says nothing about their aligments, although I find Visor acknowledging that he can't read me kinda wolfy, usually he just goes for the "Yeet Wisdom" repeat. I mean, if character growth -> Yay, but if wolf -> Yeet

Vote: Visor

@Benneh there was this and she left her vote here

[Wisdom]

this is not 'testing visor a bit' lol

I agree that's not what ended up happening. I can't prove my approach to EoD since when I rejoined thread the flip had already happened. I did want to see what could have come out from vibing with Visor, regardless. If you choose to not believe that, sure, nothing I can do about it and not a fight I feel is important having.

[Arctic]

Yeah I mean
From this page I'm still wolf reading you so no regrets there, in addition to Visor refusing to move onto you despite calling you a wolf.

You and Hally have been blindspots this game, with a slight plus on Hally for feeling chill when interacting. You shading me for 1) Not talking/focusing on you + 2) Ending on you feels like a desperate need to get me into the PoE. It's bad, sure, but how is it wolf motivated? What would I gain, as a wolf, from moving away from ~always dying Visor while also never caring about pushing Gemma/Logic (I still read both as town). There's no way I'd play that poorly as wolf.

visor did vote benneh and only moved off when it wasn't happening so he went for gemma instead

[ladd]

Without reading back, i think there is no way logic/gh doesnt have at least a wolf (again even simply from zack dying)

I have lowkey been incredibly lazy but tbh i dont feel i am really needed here to re read and stuff, yall got this


I'll still try to do some reading later and see if i find anything


I think wisdom is prob villa. Benneh is obviously villa

Gh/gemma, dya/gh, dya/logic are all pretty easy not w/w association that may become helpful down the line


Artic had a lot of ~clearing posts at eod, rask is still a villager

[nebjiamn]

Yeah I mean
From this page I'm still wolf reading you so no regrets there, in addition to Visor refusing to move onto you despite calling you a wolf.

You and Hally have been blindspots this game, with a slight plus on Hally for feeling chill when interacting. You shading me for 1) Not talking/focusing on you + 2) Ending on you feels like a desperate need to get me into the PoE. It's bad, sure, but how is it wolf motivated? What would I gain, as a wolf, from moving away from ~always dying Visor while also never caring about pushing Gemma/Logic (I still read both as town). There's no way I'd play that poorly as wolf.

play better regardless of your alignment. hving me as a blindspot still here is just flat out terrible

[Wisdom]

Sorry, did not mean to come in and instantly be defendy and omgusy, haven't really read anything since I left thread yesterday so I'm not sure what happened between me and visor flip

Btw wp @Jan I'll make sure to check your legacy at some point because I still have no idea why you were killed (: