17er Saints and Martyrs

[Wisdom]

play better regardless of your alignment. hving me as a blindspot still here is just flat out terrible

You are a blind spot, so is Vanta (I would call Gemma a blind spot outside of the PR soft as well).
I'm not good with getting a grip of all the players in a game early on unless I nolife, but us talking now is a start tbh!

[Wisdom]

visor did vote benneh and only moved off when it wasn't happening so he went for gemma instead

Lol okay, my bad!

[Wisdom]

Without reading back, i think there is no way logic/gh doesnt have at least a wolf (again even simply from zack dying)

I have lowkey been incredibly lazy but tbh i dont feel i am really needed here to re read and stuff, yall got this


I'll still try to do some reading later and see if i find anything


I think wisdom is prob villa. Benneh is obviously villa

Gh/gemma, dya/gh, dya/logic are all pretty easy not w/w association that may become helpful down the line


Artic had a lot of ~clearing posts at eod, rask is still a villager

Can you point me through Arctic and Benneh being obv town? I will read EoD2 at some point but not right now.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Can you point me through Arctic and Benneh being obv town? I will read EoD2 at some point but not right now.

it's a penumbra sort of thing, a single post won't really point to it

benneh definitely is like lock town just from how hard Visor (and, uh, I) was pushing benneh for quite a while, the way it built up, peaked, and flickered out (and how benneh came in at the very end and how he reacted to it)

Arctic fought against it the entire time and seemed to be convincingly worried that things were about to go horribly wrong, it could have been faked but I don't think so

[Wisdom]

it's a penumbra sort of thing, a single post won't really point to it

benneh definitely is like lock town just from how hard Visor (and, uh, I) was pushing benneh for quite a while, the way it built up, peaked, and flickered out (and how benneh came in at the very end and how he reacted to it)

Arctic fought against it the entire time and seemed to be convincingly worried that things were about to go horribly wrong, it could have been faked but I don't think so

Coolio!

What's your thoughts on the current gamestate? I'm not sold on the 1 wolf in Logic/GH dichotomy.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Coolio!

What's your thoughts on the current gamestate? I'm not sold on the 1 wolf in Logic/GH dichotomy.

Logic and myself are the next two to go down no matter what, order still tbd. Hopefully he's a hit lol, but hey, at least if he isn't I'm vindicated

I'm probably just leaning Logic into Gemma (with me as the inevitable sandwiched mislunch just to ensure the gentleman's sweep ) wins the game in most worlds. Still think Logic's posts point to town!him but the way Visor treated that slot is just suuuuuuper rough. Calls Logic's posts bad mid-late d1 without elaboration when Logic's taking heat, but when Syn and Logic are the two viable wagons EOD1, he calls for votes on Murska, again without elaboration, and then pivoted d2 to saying that Logic's posts were ok, there's just no consistency there really. Gemma just didn't post well when she was around, it's not her fault but she's also not taken the chance to turn it around when other people have by virtue of continuing to post, and the soft is nothing. Put up or shut up imo.

If one of those two is wrong then the game continues and it's time to expand the horizon. I promised looking into my "muddled middle" grouping of [Vanta/you/Ender] as well as the "not clear imo but probably fine" set of [Arctic/Hally] a few hours ago but it's still the weekend and I'm lazy, but yeah, that's where I'm at.

Logic flipping red I think clears Vanta. Gemma flipping red but Logic flipping green might mean Vanta's the fourth. Need to get a handle on you and Ender (Ender also did not have a great EOD, but he didn't quite go whole hog on the whole "trying to kill benneh" thing like, uh, Visor and I did, so further investigation is required).

Game is still probably easy, so I don't really have that sense of desperation like I did going into EOD2 that we were going down the wrong path despite my impending demise.

I strongly suggest you read EOD2 (says the guy who's putting off reading a few player slots lol) just to get a better grasp on things because it's pretty hard to contextualize anything that's been happening today without knowledge of exactly what happened and how it happened.

[Wisdom]

Logic and myself are the next two to go down no matter what, order still tbd. Hopefully he's a hit lol, but hey, at least if he isn't I'm vindicated

I'm probably just leaning Logic into Gemma (with me as the inevitable sandwiched mislunch just to ensure the gentleman's sweep ) wins the game in most worlds. Still think Logic's posts point to town!him but the way Visor treated that slot is just suuuuuuper rough. Calls Logic's posts bad mid-late d1 without elaboration when Logic's taking heat, but when Syn and Logic are the two viable wagons EOD1, he calls for votes on Murska, again without elaboration, and then pivoted d2 to saying that Logic's posts were ok, there's just no consistency there really. Gemma just didn't post well when she was around, it's not her fault but she's also not taken the chance to turn it around when other people have by virtue of continuing to post, and the soft is nothing. Put up or shut up imo.

If one of those two is wrong then the game continues and it's time to expand the horizon. I promised looking into my "muddled middle" grouping of [Vanta/you/Ender] as well as the "not clear imo but probably fine" set of [Arctic/Hally] a few hours ago but it's still the weekend and I'm lazy, but yeah, that's where I'm at.

Logic flipping red I think clears Vanta. Gemma flipping red but Logic flipping green might mean Vanta's the fourth. Need to get a handle on you and Ender (Ender also did not have a great EOD, but he didn't quite go whole hog on the whole "trying to kill benneh" thing like, uh, Visor and I did, so further investigation is required).

Game is still probably easy, so I don't really have that sense of desperation like I did going into EOD2 that we were going down the wrong path despite my impending demise.

I strongly suggest you read EOD2 (says the guy who's putting off reading a few player slots lol) just to get a better grasp on things because it's pretty hard to contextualize anything that's been happening today without knowledge of exactly what happened and how it happened.

I read EoD2 if I manage to finish the project I'm working on within like an hour!

Are ladd/Rask/Benneh/Dya/Murska all lock town to you? Since you don't bring them up!

[Wisdom]

What's the rules towards editing posts here btw? I've noticed I have a tendency to make gramatical errors this week ^^'

[GeneralHankerchief]

I read EoD2 if I manage to finish the project I'm working on within like an hour!

Are ladd/Rask/Benneh/Dya/Murska all lock town to you? Since you don't bring them up!

Yeah, I made a post earlier today about it, but the tl;dr of it is I'm not suspicious of the [Rask/ladd/Murska] set yet despite not dying so far, largely because Visor's role flip effectively gave the wolves a strongman kill last night (that plus Jan flipped PR). So those three still being alive is still forgivable under those circumstances, but if we have a kill outside that tomorrow, then and only then can we revisit it.

benneh and dya are always just town from that EOD (and I don't think dya is ever paired with Visor).

[GeneralHankerchief]

What's the rules towards editing posts here btw? I've noticed I have a tendency to make gramatical errors this week ^^'

There is no site/community rule against it, so it's host's discretion. For this game, Taffy indicated no editing in the OP.

[Hally]

damn we don’t have any kp in a 17er? alright lol

guess we gotta do it the old fashioned way

vote: GH

[Hally]

that kill makes me think jan was rolecopped

im not sure why they would kill jan otherwise cuz his eod kinda made him ml'able

yeah prob

either that or it’s a kill to induce paranoia about the gamestate but not sure wolves can afford to do that rn

prob still worth looking at jan’s reads but my recollection is he didn’t give much and i doubt he would be killed for them even if he was right tbh

[Hally]

this is not actually a ordered reads list but lets assume worst case scenario:

Murska
Ladd
Hally
Benneh


Raskolnikov
Dyachei
Vanta Black


Arctic
Wisdom


Gemma
Ender


Logic
GH




11:2 Kill GH
10:2 NK one of murska/ladd/hally/benneh
9:2 Kill Logic
8:2 NK one of murska/ladd/hally/benneh
7:2 One of Gemma/Ender
6:2 NK one of murska/ladd/hally/benneh
5:2 One of Gemma/Ender
4:2 NK one of murska/ladd/hally/benneh
3:2 F5 w/ Rask/dya/vanta/arctic/wisdom

i feel like that f5 with 2 wolves alive is extremely unlikely

i feel like you could still reasonably clear rask/wisdom within that f5 (pending changes in villageryness and whatnot over 4 game days)

if the wolves alive in that world killed outside the 4 i called out then they just lose lol

it’s kinda wild to me that you and arctic have me clear over rask lol

not that i’m complaining! but he’s never a wolf imo, he called out visor even D1 iirc

[nebjiamn]

it’s kinda wild to me that you and arctic have me clear over rask lol

not that i’m complaining! but he’s never a wolf imo, he called out visor even D1 iirc

i dont really think we get to that f5 often and if we do its prob just wisdom/vanta

[Hally]

i also would be absolutely shocked if arctic is a wolf but i’m assuming that’s fairly obvious to everyone atp

benneh and ladd too obviously

those 3 + rask should be locks for everyone imo

[Hally]

i wanna pre-enptively post a 'what were wolves doing?' response to anyone who might wonder that re: visor's actions yesterday and why wolves can still just be as plainsighted/openwolfing as visor/gh were

i have wolfed with visor before. one of the best things about wolfing with him is he is down to do openwolfy shit and pair himself to his teammates and just hope he gets away with it. he has no problem 'selling out' on a shield on a wolf bro or voting out one of the most obvious villagers ITG that will almost certainly cause instant repercussions for him the following day (see: his push on me yesterday!)

so all that to say, exactly what visor and GH were doing last night, i have done myself with visor as wolf bros several times because we both know a) theres always a chance villagers misclear you after despite being openly pro-wolf because villagers tend to be dumb and b) even if it outs you, visor enjoys the actual part of 'wolfing' and just being obvious

i.e. visor is the kind of wolf who will do things for fun if he feels boxed in and isn't afraid to spew himself wolf in the process if it means he he can mislunch his friend or an obvious villa or something. i've done this with him in a hydra game (dya/visor were wolves with me/bop), super smash bros, and probly a few others

and i think GH is obviously capable of doing the same with visor, so when the question comes around like "what were wolves doing day X??" -- the answer doesn't have to be more complicated than "wolfing and having fun." please do not at any point clear GH for refuge in audacity or whatever the hell that thing arctic called it is

yeah, i think visor and gh went for the hail mary because they knew they were already fucked if one flipped so there’s nothing to lose in that spot

but yeah i doubt they actually expected it to work tbh, i think they prob did it mostly for fun because they enjoy wolfing together and seeing how much shit they can get away with

[Hally]

Hell with it man, you and I are already w/w apparently, let's make this happen.

Just one request, do not ask why I'm awake at 2am.

"GH he's obviously just pocketing you here don't be an idiot"

OH YEAH BECAUSE I HAVE SO MUCH TOWNCRED AND THREADPULL RIGHT NOW

If I weren't on mobile in a vehicle dealership right now I'd be better able to articulate this thought

But to me the past 6-8 hours has felt like a major piece of the puzzle missing just snapped into place

It's not a question of any minor niggling details or anything like that that's gotten me all out of whack this game, is just that the poe is Straight Out Wrong as it stands, possibly even game losing if there's no reeval

Visor is just town, logic is probably town, I'm town, and we were set to go down 1-2-3 probably in that order and we'd be 0 for 3

This is what I feel so let's shake it up

One thing to monitor down the line is when exactly visor became a leading candidate d2 and Gemma slipped off the radar for the most part despite being in nobody's town list (yes I am aware of the soft)

I would argue that both had reasonably similar levels of both posting and quality until 6-8 hours ago and yet visor was a far stickier wagon

The soft is certainly a part of it but even before the soft this was the case

That's the true dark forces at work IMO

if anyone has doubts on gh, just read these posts lol

even the way he lampshades how w/w visor and him look in the first two posts

he was either drunk or he’s a wolf but he said he isn’t drinking this week so there’s only one option left

[Hally]

also +1 to logic being spewed wolf from how visor treated him EoD1 (it’s not actually +1 because i’m pretty sure i said it first hehe)

i really don’t see how w!visor doesn’t try to kill logic D1 if he’s a villager esp when he had already set up he could vote there

he isn’t the type to pass up the chance to kill a villager over a bro and me/zack/benneh/rask all wolf read logic too so it’s not even like visor would have looked particularly bad off it

add on logic’s posting and gh shielding him and… yeah

[ladd]

Can you point me through Arctic and Benneh being obv town? I will read EoD2 at some point but not right now.

Benneh just is a villager based on posting. I dont even think visor eod necessarely spews him villa but like he is just a villager

I can point out artic's posts when i am at a pc but if you read eod2 i think he is p obvious too



Fwiw i think wisdom is a villager with a good degree of confidence just based on meta


I realize in this post i say nothing lol but ya

[ladd]

Did anyone check for jan softing a result just in case

(Also visor role basically confirms murska v, not that it was needed)

[Hally]

visor did vote benneh and only moved off when it wasn't happening so he went for gemma instead

it was actually the opposite iirc?

he and gh both started pushing gemma hard when visor came back to the thread but people didn’t want to go there because of the soft so they pivoted to benneh instead, which was… wild to read lol

i think they might have been hoping to force gemma to hard claim initially

[Hally]

i wish i could have been around at EoD to mislunch benneh like he deserves

[Wisdom]

Feels like everyone's just going all in that GH/Logic is the final 2?
I'll read EoD now.

[Wisdom]

holy fuck i do not like what's going on here

there are dark forces at work

vote: Visor

siw

Okay yeah after the sudden flash wagon on Benneh I can see how this reactions comes from town
+ to Arctic

[Hally]

tbh i’m sure i want to believe logic can be a wolf without gh (though i acknowledge gh isn’t clearing logic anymore)

not even because it doesn’t make sense, more for gh’s sake cuz that’s just… super rough lol

[Wisdom]

Okay I get why that Benneh vote was bad now but in my defense I had no reason to think that wagon would really take off, I just wanted to vibe with Visor and give Benneh some pressure to see what happened, didn't expect Benneh to actually get in danger.

Ender and Arctic are so towny this EoD so far holy moly

[Hally]

tbh i’m sure i want to believe logic can be a wolf without gh (though i acknowledge gh isn’t clearing logic anymore)

not even because it doesn’t make sense, more for gh’s sake cuz that’s just… super rough lol

*im NOT sure


also i agree wisdom is prob villa too based on how visor treated her + her voting visor for it D1 if nothing else

i kinda doubt visor would go “i’ll let other people read them” about a teammate and wisdom def didn’t need to vote him for it in that spot

[Hally]

Okay I get why that Benneh vote was bad now but in my defense I had no reason to think that wagon would really take off, I just wanted to vibe with Visor and give Benneh some pressure to see what happened, didn't expect Benneh to actually get in danger.

Ender and Arctic are so towny this EoD so far holy moly

why ender? imo he is prob the last if gh/logic doesn’t end it

[Wisdom]

On that note, maybe I'm stupid but Arctic's freak out seems way overblown. Not that Benneh is wolf with Arctic but just feels like such a big reaction for an experienced player to actually believe wolves were banding together for a last stand on D2 like that.

I do agree with bolded though. But in my head Arctic and Matt are the same person and if Matt played like this he would be superwolf. I don't know if Arctic has EoD nerves like I do, but if he does then yeah he is surely town here.

[Wisdom]

*im NOT sure


also i agree wisdom is prob villa too based on how visor treated her + her voting visor for it D1 if nothing else

i kinda doubt visor would go “i’ll let other people read them” about a teammate and wisdom def didn’t need to vote him for it in that spot

If I had a nickel for every time a wolf said "I'm always reading this person wrong so I'll just ignore the slot"