17er Saints and Martyrs

[Vanta Black]

I was all ready to go back to my ISOs and back read and try to brute force a solve today, just to try to get a ittle better at guessing who's scum.

I'm VT, but if y'all wanna maj me instead, looks like we've got room for it.

My thoughts right now are kinda on the frivolous side, because I have not done the brute force thing.

Like, at one point GH said "Let's kill the Australians." Gemma is Australian, right? Ender?

GH also said if Logic v, then I was w, though, that is not the case, which you will know sooner or later.

I think Vanta would be an excellent dog name. Raskolnikov would be a terrible dog name but long ago I named a cat that once. Two black kttens, my roommate and I named them Raskolnikov and Mephisto. Raskolnikov turned out to be a female cat and probably everybody thought we just named her "Rascal." A name that would fit any cat I've ever had.

[Hally]

hey vanta, can you talk about your progression on logic throughout the game? what i saw is:

- you wolf read logic D1 essentially for not believing you’d be his top wolf read. why did you not believe that? what did you think you about his posts outside his push on you?

- i see a lot of posts where you disagreed with logic about whether you or him would be the more unlikely NK (lol) and that seems to be it as far as your interactions go. i can’t tell if you were wolf reading logic for the NK stuff or if it was just something you disagreed with him on?

- it looks like after logic became your top wolf read D1 he stayed at the bottom of your reads list until he got lunched. can you talk more about your thoughts on him from D1 til then? did you have any doubts he would flip wolf during that time? were there other reasons besides his D1 push on you that factored into why he stayed at the bottom?

- D4 when we were lunching logic you said you felt like the game wasn’t as easy as it seemed. why did you think that? why did you vote logic despite feeling like it wasn’t that easy?

sorry if these questions are pedantic or annoying, just trying to backfill your thoughts here

[Hally]

I was all ready to go back to my ISOs and back read and try to brute force a solve today, just to try to get a ittle better at guessing who's scum.

I'm VT, but if y'all wanna maj me instead, looks like we've got room for it.

My thoughts right now are kinda on the frivolous side, because I have not done the brute force thing.

Like, at one point GH said "Let's kill the Australians." Gemma is Australian, right? Ender?

GH also said if Logic v, then I was w, though, that is not the case, which you will know sooner or later.

I think Vanta would be an excellent dog name. Raskolnikov would be a terrible dog name but long ago I named a cat that once. Two black kttens, my roommate and I named them Raskolnikov and Mephisto. Raskolnikov turned out to be a female cat and probably everybody thought we just named her "Rascal." A name that would fit any cat I've ever had.

gth who do you think the last wolf is rn?

[Vanta Black]

hey vanta, can you talk about your progression on logic throughout the game? what i saw is:

- you wolf read logic D1 essentially for not believing you’d be his top wolf read. why did you not believe that? what did you think you about his posts outside his push on you?

- i see a lot of posts where you disagreed with logic about whether you or him would be the more unlikely NK (lol) and that seems to be it as far as your interactions go. i can’t tell if you were wolf reading logic for the NK stuff or if it was just something you disagreed with him on?

- it looks like after logic became your top wolf read D1 he stayed at the bottom of your reads list until he got lunched. can you talk more about your thoughts on him from D1 til then? did you have any doubts he would flip wolf during that time? were there other reasons besides his D1 push on you that factored into why he stayed at the bottom?

- D4 when we were lunching logic you said you felt like the game wasn’t as easy as it seemed. why did you think that? why did you vote logic despite feeling like it wasn’t that easy?

sorry if these questions are pedantic or annoying, just trying to backfill your thoughts here

In reverse to how you asked:

I said the game wasnt as easy as it seemed because I thought Logic was posting very scummy with not a lot of thought. Declared me his top wolf read when I had made very few posts, but never changed when I'd made more. I thought Visor was scum, that was the easy part for me, and a lot of people found Syn pretty quickly. So, easy, until my top read flipped orthogonally to what I'd thought.

I did think Logic's posts D3 were a lot better, and yes, I had doubts. But by then Logic needed to be resolved either way.

The bit about who's the least likely NK was a response to something Logic said, and also something GH said (somethlng like "it made no sense to kill Logic," sounded like GH meant the NK but I think he didn't). That went on way longer than it should have. But legit, I practicallly never get NKed. I think twice, once as an outed cop and once when scum used RNG. In my vast experience of like 22 games. But to answer the question of whether that factored into my wolf read, yes. Making a big deal of how you might be the NK, so you couldn't possibly be w.

Childish answer: He started it!

[Vanta Black]

In reverse to how you asked:

I said the game wasnt as easy as it seemed because I thought Logic was posting very scummy with not a lot of thought. Declared me his top wolf read when I had made very few posts, but never changed when I'd made more. I thought Visor was scum, that was the easy part for me, and a lot of people found Syn pretty quickly. So, easy, until my top read flipped orthogonally to what I'd thought.

I did think Logic's posts D3 were a lot better, and yes, I had doubts. But by then Logic needed to be resolved either way.

The bit about who's the least likely NK was a response to something Logic said, and also something GH said (somethlng like "it made no sense to kill Logic," sounded like GH meant the NK but I think he didn't). That went on way longer than it should have. But legit, I practicallly never get NKed. I think twice, once as an outed cop and once when scum used RNG. In my vast experience of like 22 games. But to answer the question of whether that factored into my wolf read, yes. Making a big deal of how you might be the NK, so you couldn't possibly be w.

Childish answer: He started it!

I THInk this was D4 actually

GTH would prob vote Wisdom right now

[Hally]

In reverse to how you asked:

I said the game wasnt as easy as it seemed because I thought Logic was posting very scummy with not a lot of thought. Declared me his top wolf read when I had made very few posts, but never changed when I'd made more. I thought Visor was scum, that was the easy part for me, and a lot of people found Syn pretty quickly. So, easy, until my top read flipped orthogonally to what I'd thought.

but you said the game didn’t seem easy before logic flipped

im confused lol

[Vanta Black]

but you said the game didn’t seem easy before logic flipped

im confused lol

I did?

Okay, out for a few hours but I'm not dipping, I will be back.

[Hally]

yeah, you posted it here:

Yeah getting the idea that it's not gonna be as easy as it looked.

we hadn’t lunched logic yet

[Hally]

uh

why did he just nope out of the thread lol

[Hally]

man reading gh’s posts is kinda sad because he was all over gemma the entire game

dude got merked cuz we lunched the wrong wolf first and then everyone shat on him saying how terrible his reads were

#justice4gh

[dyachei]

uh

why did he just nope out of the thread lol

pretty sure vantas pronouns are she/her? or am I wrong?

[Hally]

pretty sure vantas pronouns are she/her? or am I wrong?

i have no idea but mb if i fucked up


dya, do you remember why you voted gemma EoD1?

[dyachei]

i have no idea but mb if i fucked up


dya, do you remember why you voted gemma EoD1?

She was wolfier than syn imo. I felt like she was just shit posting even when things got more serious

[nebjiamn]

man reading gh’s posts is kinda sad because he was all over gemma the entire game

dude got merked cuz we lunched the wrong wolf first and then everyone shat on him saying how terrible his reads were

#justice4gh

ya

i feel bad because i got a bit overemotional about his eod2 and pushing me with visor but he played a pretty decent game

sorry GH!

[Hally]

She was wolfier than syn imo. I felt like she was just shit posting even when things got more serious

did you talk about that anywhere? i saw on early D2 you had them as null:

did I forget anyone?

V
murska
rask
Hally

light v
ben
jan
wisdom
ladd maybe

null
gh - depends on what happens with logic
ender
gemma
vanta

wolfy
arctic
logic
visor

even though they hadn’t posted anything between when you voted and then, so not sure what changed?

i don’t see where you talked about them D2 outside of that but not sure if the search function is eating posts

[Hally]

(also it’s funny that i was one of your top villas D2 and iirc i leaned town on you too, and now look at us!)

[Hally]

i skimmed gemma’s iso and i still don’t really have strong thoughts on their posts

their stuff mostly just passes through me but


the bolded lines of this post in particular seem wolfy

the first one is one of ladd’s classic interaction tell iirc. basically that wolves are more likely to tmi a lack of interaction from their bros and say stuff like “X is ignoring me” when it’s prob not something they would notice as town. not sure this is the best example of the tell but

then the second one just seems like a lazy wolf read? they ended up voting murska but i don’t get why based on what they say here

wow this dude is so villagery

[Vanta Black]

yeah, you posted it here:


we hadn’t lunched logic yet

Here is the series of posts I was responding to, with context

Day 1 votecount:

Syn (7) : Ender, Ladd, Jan, Raskolnikov, GH, Arctic, Murska
Logic (3) : Hally, Benneh, Vanta
Murska (2) : Visor, Gemma
Gemma (1) : Dyachei
GH (1) : Zack
Ender (1) : Syn
Vanta (1) : Logic
Visor (1) : Wisdom

If there were wolves bussing Syn, it wasn't many - probably Ender is the only possibility. I'd go back through D2 to see who the people were who were most adamant that there was bussing going on.

Day 2:

Visor (7) : Raskolnikov, Benneh, Hally, Vanta, Arctic, Murska, Ladd
Benneh (2) : Wisdom, Jan
Gemma (2) : Visor, GH
Logic (1) : Dyachei
Arctic (1) : Logic
GH (1) : Ender

If there were wolves bussing Visor, it's not the same people who were bussing Syn unless it's exactly Arctic - who convinced me somewhat with the theatrics at EoD in that case.

Now, Logic's obviously been real suspicious with their votes and reads this game. But Logic did turn out to be town, then Hally and Vanta actually look pretty bad just based on these votecounts - I think Visor was the more likely bus and was probably telling their partners in wolf-chat to pile in, because if we had two mislynches lined up next on GH and Logic the hiding bad guys would have the best chance by digging as deep under cover as they can during the time we're giving them. Not that we don't have people off-wagon who aren't doing much better.

Jan and Ladd have been interesting kills. It's possible they do have a rolecop, but I still don't know why they'd prefer to leave me alive when they know they can't cc me, but they could cc unclaimed PRs later. Of course, maybe it's just that I've been too lazy to be a solving threat. But that's obviously going to change once we get out of consensus lunch territory.

I had suspicions about Murska D1, so did others. I think he was at 3 or 4 votes when he claimed. The claim was one of those “Okay I buy this, for now” things. I was skeptical.

But the first bolded section made it sound like Logic had already flipped town. In retrospect it was missing an “if” but at the time, Logic hadn’t flipped. So that looked a bit TMI to me.

The second one, again with 20/20 hindsight looks like Murska just confused Ladd and Zack, because Ladd was still very much in the thread. My thought there was that Ladd had been discussed as the NK at some point, so again, kinda TMI.

So those two posts changed my worldview and made me think I had miscleared Murska, even though it wasn’t a complete misclear.

Then I posted this:

So...

1. Everything I thought is wrong.

2. Maybe not everything.

3. But possibly.

Between my computer and my brain I've got some lag here. More in a bit.

Ladd posted this:

Ill be around tomorrow but frels like we may need to get ready for a medium difficulty game friendos

And my post that you quoted was in response to this. Like, yeah, it's not gonna be that easy.

So I was wrong about Murska’s post changing my worldview, it shouldn’t have. But at the time, it did.

[Hally]

i got to the part of D2 where ender pushed arctic for terrible reasons and now remember why i wanted to kill him

good thing he’s spewed!


(idk what i’m getting out of this tbh, i’m just skimming random pages to kill time until i get to go home)

[Vanta Black]

uh

why did he just nope out of the thread lol

Moi? I had to be afk for a bit, said so two posts above.

I did?

Okay, out for a few hours but I'm not dipping, I will be back.

[Hally]

Here is the series of posts I was responding to, with context

I had suspicions about Murska D1, so did others. I think he was at 3 or 4 votes when he claimed. The claim was one of those “Okay I buy this, for now” things. I was skeptical.

But the first bolded section made it sound like Logic had already flipped town. In retrospect it was missing an “if” but at the time, Logic hadn’t flipped. So that looked a bit TMI to me.

The second one, again with 20/20 hindsight looks like Murska just confused Ladd and Zack, because Ladd was still very much in the thread. My thought there was that Ladd had been discussed as the NK at some point, so again, kinda TMI.

So those two posts changed my worldview and made me think I had miscleared Murska, even though it wasn’t a complete misclear.

Then I posted this:


Ladd posted this:


And my post that you quoted was in response to this. Like, yeah, it's not gonna be that easy.

So I was wrong about Murska’s post changing my worldview, it shouldn’t have. But at the time, it did.

ok thanks, that makes more sense

didn’t realize you were talking about murska not logic


also maybe dumb but the bold/underlined part of this post seems like a kinda difficult thought for a wolf to fake?

[dyachei]

No I didn't talk about it and it wasn't a strong read like my arctic read was.

I couldn't get people on arctic so I went Gemma. I've seen syn do this shit as a villager

[Vanta Black]

ok thanks, that makes more sense

didn’t realize you were talking about murska not logic


also maybe dumb but the bold/underlined part of this post seems like a kinda difficult thought for a wolf to fake?

Not dumb, I'm not a wolf, but this will be good to remember next time I actually am!

[Hally]

i dunno, i’m not really sold on vanta being a wolf y’all

[nebjiamn]

i dunno, i’m not really sold on vanta being a wolf y’all

ok now what

(i'm not really swayed by their posting but admittedly i'm not swayed by much right now so what else ya got)

[Arctic]

@Arctic can you bullet point the reasons you have for wisdom being a wolf?

i see your point about wisdom saying rask looked good for pushing syn but why can’t that just be wisdom thinking rask’s push was villagery independent of syn’s alignment? iirc i thought the same thing

are there other reasons?

it could be, i ack'ed her explanation which was something along these lines

but i think it's her also cuz of these

1. she was repping logic/gh v and but did nothing to stop either elim or even consider killing anyone else
2. she hasn't interacted with my push on her at all until today and i think she would have been more skeeved out by it as V given me trying to kill her over logic at eod4 should have raised alarm bells. i think her progression on me is also just pretty bad, it seemed like she tried to pair me with gemma yesterday (before gemma flipped, notedly) and quickly backed off today after it clearly wasn't happening
3. her posts about gemma yesterday felt like she knew gemma was flipping wolf and the progression from being "idk let the claim resolve" to "oh cool gemma is outted wolf?" is non-existent and simply followed the thread consensus

I also feel like she just did nothing on the days while we were killing logic and GH which is probably not charitable to wolfread cuz a lot of people didn't do much, including me, but I did attempt to do something about the fact I thought logic was flipping v

[Arctic]

syn was a backup not goon so i don’t think it matters from a role standpoint which of syn/gemma dies first

but yeah just from how syn/gemma were posting i think wolves would prefer syn dying over gemma, it just doesn’t feel like gemma was ever really in consideration though? backreading EoD it felt like it was always gonna be syn or logic imo (maybe it felt different in real time though) and dya couldn’t have voted logic given their reads

unironically though dya not pushing syn/visor harder/earlier is one of the things holding me back from thinking it’s dya because i remember them being inclined to bus as a wolf and i’m not sure they would actually let syn/visor die without getting some cred there

well i did say i was going to vote gemma so i thought it was possible maybe

and idk what meta you're referring to, dya doesn't seem big on bussing in my experience

[Arctic]

man reading gh’s posts is kinda sad because he was all over gemma the entire game

dude got merked cuz we lunched the wrong wolf first and then everyone shat on him saying how terrible his reads were

#justice4gh

i blame benneh

[Hally]

ok now what

(i'm not really swayed by their posting but admittedly i'm not swayed by much right now so what else ya got)

idk

i’m torn between vanta’s macro body of work being pretty clearly the most underwhelming/having the least going for them vs. the micro moments like the one i just pointed out just not feeling like a wolf

i do think their logic push fits with a wolf who saw logic posting weird and a bunch of loud villagers saying he was wolfy and just rode that out because there doesn’t seem to be really any real thought or consideration of logic’s alignment behind the push afaict, so maybe it’s actually just that easy but i dunno


i still need to actually put my nose to grindstone and case out my concerns re: dya but i’m procrastinating because i’m lazy and slept like shit last night and also i want to see what they do without me on their back (also i am scared to upset them more (esp if i’m wrong))

i will def do it this game day though because i want to make sure you’re alive to weigh in on it

[Arctic]

i dunno, i’m not really sold on vanta being a wolf y’all

okay then who is it??? you don't think it's ender, wisdom or vanta so now what