Gemma's Favorite Music Mafia

[pzelda]

Also I take personal offense at it being called "not a good case" when I literally caught a wolf everyone was going to handwave as town but that's neither here nor there.

Tbh, I think it's a rather one-sided read focused on few select posts. What was your goal there? To start a discussion?

[EnderWiggin]

Tbh, I think it's a rather one-sided read focused on few select posts. What was your goal there? To start a discussion?

To point out how Arctic had been pushing several bad faith takes and when called out would backpedal on them?

Do explain how it was "one-sided". If you're asking why there was no "Oh but this part could mean they were town" then like idk go read any of my other cases. If I case someone as x unless I have doubt I don't usually bring that up.

Also like when you case someone it's not your job to devils advocate your own work.

[waza]

For some reason I asked Ladd instead of @waza who is present. What's your opinion on Arctic/Ender pairing?

Hmmm I think you having the thought is towny haha but that’s probs not helpful input to anyone

I’m on phone atm and occupied so I’ll have to look at it later and let you know, ender wasn’t my first tinfoil guess if things go south but yeah I was trying to keep the tinfoils contained for now in order to not poison the well as Benny would say

[didistetter]

in no world is ender w/w with arctic.

0.

zilch.

[Lissa]

I feel a little bit lazy, but I don't think there's a reason to revisit most of my reads.

Benneh/waza/stett/Dya/Lissa/Taffy - town

Visor - very likely town. I think he might be someone to talk about some more, but if Arctic flips red, he's basically cleared. That early push from Arctic wasn't bussing IMHO. And the track is real in that case.
Ladd - it just feels like the guy's town
Annika - multiple players have her locked town. I don't quite see the reason, but I'm comfortable rolling with the consensus.
Maple - I'm locking him villa if Arctic flips red.

Ender - Ok, I think town, but I also think I should keep an eye on him. I wouldn't clear him for pushing Arctic and I would check how Arctic pushed back.

ok like

I'm not exactly calling you out for having everyone town per se but you're saying there's no reason to revisit most of your reads and you're calling everyone except the outed wolf town. That is not the thing you should be thinking when you look at this list, or you shouldn't be saying you still think Ender is town (I know you talked more about them after this but). I know you're like I should keep an eye on him but this isn't written like you actually see there as being a third wolf to find?

I have written a LOT OF LISTS sort of like that one over the years but all of them are like

they understand what they're saying in a way this doesn't yknow, the perspective going on here is jank. they acknowledge on some level or at least don't actively contradict to this level that the chance of SOMEONE on them being a wolf is (in this case 100% from a village pov)

I'm fairly sure you're just town anyway but the like mindset going on here kinda wigs me out.

Also ender's not a wolf with arctic lol. No.

[Totally not Taffy]

Benneh's reply yesterday made me realise that bc I jumped to my mentions yesterday I had actually missed a bunch of posts so I will need to reread the day.

I"m not sticking around right now bc I have to go shopping but I've got nothing on this afternoon.

dumb read alert but I feel like taffy saying specifically that i was annoyed at sod with how interactions were going is interesting and possibly towny language for what i was doing

i think any number of wolves would choose to use less derisive language and instead call me aggressive or agenda'd but annoyed feels like it comes from towny moundset? they felt like my prodding was from a place of annoyance at what waza was doing but if taffy were wolf and knows the alignments of me and a few others and coming up with a fake read, would they choose 'annoyed'?

like lissa just espoused, the ladd and visor reads gave me some pause because i was also concerned i was doing that dumb thing where you give someone credit for pushing you too easily and it becomes a thing but both of them kinda 'a-ha!' agreeing about the narration/narrow mindedness of it kinda rubbe dme the wrong way. and moreso visor than ladd since ladd originated it.

i still think visor is towny for reasons related to what lissa linked a bit earlier in how he shaped his reads though so idk maybe he's right

I still had this open from overnight reading and @nebjiamn I would never call someone aggressive unless in the sense of "the way you phrased that is aggressive please step away from thread"

I found it quite unpleasant that you and Lissa referred to my early scumleans as "aggression" bc that's really not my intention and it is a game about pointing at each other and calling them scum for mostly reasons they're not going to agree with.

Taffy (I lost count)

[Arctic]

I LITERALLY HAD TO STOP EATING DINNER CAUSE I REMEMBERED THIS????









IS THIS NOT OUTING? HE HAD NO IDEA OF THE IMPLCATIONS OF SUNBAE'S ROLE AND HOW IT WORKS BUT NOW HES CLAIMING THE EVEN NIGHT COUNTERPATR????????

lol
this happened because i barely paid attention to what my own role (because it was even-night and i couldn't do anything for the first cycle) and thought it was a bus-driver, not a redirector, so when i saw sunbae's role i assumed he was the same thing which is why i was confused about how wolves could have not killed him

then i read closely and realized both of our roles were just redirectors

the phrasing makes it pretty clear, i am aware, i just glazed over the words. this is understandably hard to believe. but if you guys are going to kill me over an incorrect slip i at least don't want to be blamed and flamed for it because it was an honest mistake

[Arctic]

lol

ngl if i saved a maf to kill a maf that's based as f

time to bark for us arcy :3

ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF BARK BARK BARK BARK RUGF RUFF RUG HGGGGRRRRRR RRRRRR GRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRR HISS GROWL BITE BITE SNARL BORK BORK BORK BORK GRRRR ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF

[Totally not Taffy]

Oh just this

I individually townread all of Stett/Annika/Maple but logically there should be one wolf in those three

bc it's a lot more likely that I'm wrong on Maple than that both Stett and Annika are
and if I'm correct on Maple I still don't think both of them are wrong so one must be a wolf

I haven't found any of the arguments against Maple compelling but I might be confbiased
so I went back and reread Sunbae's reads wall and from that I'd vote Annika over Stett

Taffy (count+1)

[Arctic]

drinking a nice fruity drink and thumbing through arctic's posts

I think him being a wolf looks like, really really good for visor lol

his push on him was really uncharitable and flat out misinterpretive in a way I don't think w/w pushes look very often

I don't really think he's a wolf with maple but it's not AS strong

he's not a wolf with taffy but I don't really think taffy was ever a wolf anyway at this point. frankly his posting kinda gives me the sense that he had some kind of mechanical reason to think taffy was a neutral after her claim, or at least otherwise thought so for some reason

trying to claim the sunbae counterpart when he obviously had NO IDEA what the role even did is crazy, I guess he needed a reason to not have taffy ignite him, and he didn't think something else would fit in the setup? should've isoed himself first wowee

reading his most recent posts it feels obvious he felt backed into a corner and like he had no other option but to claim and was trying desperately to leverage it into living

my reason for thinking taffy was lying is because i heard nothing about anticlaim both when i got my role and afterwards

i'd appreciate if the entire lobby didn't spend the rest of the phase preflipping me as mafia even if we have unanimously decided i am going to die for this

which is.. honestly a pretty big waste. you are killing one of the few PR claims which is actually confirmable lol. i'd even accept being ignited at this point because then i can at least use my action on visor so that he can track someone without dying

i don't understand the arguments for why my role wouldn't exist either. but a lot of people are saying poison rn and it's not only wolves. so y'all are going to have to look at that for yourselves

[didistetter]

lol is that why everyone was hard townreading me for eod? cuz they think im a PR?

well I would have claimed if I was, I'm not that stupid

so if that's the only reason you are townreading me then we should probably calibrate for that now rather than 3 days later when I'm still alive when you guys would find out i am in fact not a PR and decide to turbo blitz me

why did u say this arccy

[Arctic]

lol i've never actually been on the receiving end of one of those "you get mech outted despite being town" situations so i suppose this was going to happen at some point

but i saw waza arguing to kill himself and ignite me just because he thinks he looks bad if i am wolf, which is obviously not something i can agree with

if you want to ignite me then we should not be voting out someone just because they have more equity in a wolf!me world because i'm not mafia. that is just going to kill two villagers, most probably

waza in particular is almost certainly town because wolves know my claim is real here and they don't want to let me live to night to fuck up with their actions, but he suggested to kill someone else to the vote (himself) and let me live at night lol. never kill him please

[Totally not Taffy]

Oh, Arctic

Listen I know I've ignored your posts yesterday but I did so bc your reaction to my claim sounded so extremely wolfy and I just didn't want to be the one to go "we should solve around Arctic bc I bombed him" and "he might be PR" and then in the next breath call everything you say wolfy

But you've got to realise that asking me "if you get NKed will I die with you" is what wolves want to know, as town you shouldn't want me to make it public whether wolves can get a two-fer maybe a hattrick later on if you do protect me tonight

It's also not the best play if you are a protective to announce your target bc wolves just go elsewhere, and if your role works like Sunbae's does the a) you'd die anyway so why care if I ignite or not, and b) there is a very high chance Sunbae died protecting you so you'd not be bombed anyway which means you shouldn't be worried about dying at all

Talk to me about Maple/Annika/Stett please


Taffy (count+2)

[Gemma]

Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0
Day 2 - Votes from post 673 through 975

Votes	Target	Voters (Posts in Phase)
6	Arctic	EnderWiggin (21), Lissa (25), didistetter (35), nebjiamn (44), pzelda (20), waza (33)
1	ladd	Visor (14)
6	Not Voting	Arctic (27), Maple (23), Totally not Taffy (9), annika (16), dyachei (8), ladd (21)

[Arctic]

why did u say this arccy

why did u say this arccy

i didn't want to be outted as a PR because my action gets a lot more utility if i breadcrumb a target at eod and end up saving them, which can give us a clear if people realize who i targeted, because without a PR claim i was obviously not gonna be nightkilled

[Arctic]

Oh, Arctic

Listen I know I've ignored your posts yesterday but I did so bc your reaction to my claim sounded so extremely wolfy and I just didn't want to be the one to go "we should solve around Arctic bc I bombed him" and "he might be PR" and then in the next breath call everything you say wolfy

But you've got to realise that asking me "if you get NKed will I die with you" is what wolves want to know, as town you shouldn't want me to make it public whether wolves can get a two-fer maybe a hattrick later on if you do protect me tonight

It's also not the best play if you are a protective to announce your target bc wolves just go elsewhere, and if your role works like Sunbae's does the a) you'd die anyway so why care if I ignite or not, and b) there is a very high chance Sunbae died protecting you so you'd not be bombed anyway which means you shouldn't be worried about dying at all

Talk to me about Maple/Annika/Stett please


Taffy (count+2)

well maybe but it's also what i want to know because i don't know that you're town. you can easily get away with claiming to ignite me while wolves dodge my ability so 2 villagers end up dying. if you can only use it when you're dead then i have to worry about that less. this is more of a precautionary thing even though i understand from your point of view it's not optimal if you're town, but i still don't really trust you

annika and stett are still in my never kill tier this game not just because of the day 1 votes but for general play

i should probably have thoughts on maple's claim but i don't. knowing him it's probably fake and visor is just going along with it (regardless of either of their alignments) because i refuse to believe this guy just never rands VT ever and has an incessant need to fakeclaim every game. i'd still probably vote him out today but the game has become a lot more difficult to parse now that i am being treated as outted

[didistetter]

Vote: Unvote

gn.

Arctic if ur town can you look at pzelda's reactions to ender's case/your claim etc.

[Arctic]

Everything lissa and benneh have said sounds good to me

Even if artic comes in and tries to explain, i honestly dont think having an even redirector makes sense. Why would u need to split up a redirector?

Ender/visor/benneh/lissa/annika/stett/zelda/waza all seem like villagers . Maple/taffy should be real.


So i guess that leaves dya as last wolf and sunbae is just that sick and was n1ed

There is prolly spew to be found in eod wrt artic when he got wagoned but i dunno if i care to read back today given it d probabky just clear people who are already clear

Visor should track me/dya imo.

hmm

i feel like this push on me comes across as far more pushable than benneh's once i flip, and i'm not sure a wolf knowing full well that my role does exist and is in this setup would try to use that as an argument cuz it's not gonna look good when i flip

i would guess that, as convincing as his acting is, benneh is probably a wolf for all this. i think he was prompted to look at me again because he thought i was vanilla fps'ing based on what i claimed and asked him earlier and he's converted that into a free ML now that he can't just say to ignite me since my claim made me self-resolving. and now he specifically doesn't want to let me act at night either, which is another thing i take problem with because wolves are not going to want to let me act tonight

i think lissa deciding to make 10 posts about me being outted mafia and preflipping based off that comes across as performative. i think she's intentionally trying to come across as lacking TMI on me. good wolves see situations like this and decide to preflip the villager wolf and make a bunch of nonsense solving so they can look like they didn't have TMI after the flip. but i think a villager here would still be uncertain, or at least uncertain enough to the point of not deciding to treat me as outted mafia or make their entire solve based on my posts before even getting my flip

[Lissa]

Benneh's reply yesterday made me realise that bc I jumped to my mentions yesterday I had actually missed a bunch of posts so I will need to reread the day.

I"m not sticking around right now bc I have to go shopping but I've got nothing on this afternoon.



I still had this open from overnight reading and @nebjiamn I would never call someone aggressive unless in the sense of "the way you phrased that is aggressive please step away from thread"

I found it quite unpleasant that you and Lissa referred to my early scumleans as "aggression" bc that's really not my intention and it is a game about pointing at each other and calling them scum for mostly reasons they're not going to agree with.

Taffy (I lost count)

think you read something into that that wasn't there. wasn't intended in the way it sounds like you took it

lol
this happened because i barely paid attention to what my own role (because it was even-night and i couldn't do anything for the first cycle) and thought it was a bus-driver, not a redirector, so when i saw sunbae's role i assumed he was the same thing which is why i was confused about how wolves could have not killed him

then i read closely and realized both of our roles were just redirectors

the phrasing makes it pretty clear, i am aware, i just glazed over the words. this is understandably hard to believe. but if you guys are going to kill me over an incorrect slip i at least don't want to be blamed and flamed for it because it was an honest mistake

yeah sorry I just don't believe you lol. sure it's an unconventional type of redirector, but it being a bus driver would make even less sense and it's not like it's some behemoth of a mash role

[Arctic]

think you read something into that that wasn't there. wasn't intended in the way it sounds like you took it



yeah sorry I just don't believe you lol. sure it's an unconventional type of redirector, but it being a bus driver would make even less sense and it's not like it's some behemoth of a mash role

then i'd humbly request you stop solving based on me being a wolf and instead solve on me being a villager or solve independently from my alignment because you are putting poison into the thread

[Arctic]

ok like

I'm not exactly calling you out for having everyone town per se but you're saying there's no reason to revisit most of your reads and you're calling everyone except the outed wolf town. That is not the thing you should be thinking when you look at this list, or you shouldn't be saying you still think Ender is town (I know you talked more about them after this but). I know you're like I should keep an eye on him but this isn't written like you actually see there as being a third wolf to find?

I have written a LOT OF LISTS sort of like that one over the years but all of them are like

they understand what they're saying in a way this doesn't yknow, the perspective going on here is jank. they acknowledge on some level or at least don't actively contradict to this level that the chance of SOMEONE on them being a wolf is (in this case 100% from a village pov)

I'm fairly sure you're just town anyway but the like mindset going on here kinda wigs me out.

Also ender's not a wolf with arctic lol. No.

hmm on second thought maybe this person does not actually have TMI on my alignment. seems more genuine than the previous solving

since you asked @didistetter i thought it was a little weird how pzelda never commented on my claim specifically and just kinda absorbed the sentiment that i was outted mafia. so i'm kinda sketched there. i'm not sure what to make of his posts preflipping me. if i was actually mafia and reading this from a third party perspective, i'd think that him preflipping ender with me is too unhinged to come from a wolf, but knowing i'm actually town i'm not sure if that makes the point moot. it's probably still villagery either way, but meh

[ladd]

I am gonna be real arctic i have no problems believing your stuff about buss driver, stuff like that happens

I just find it super weird for this setup to have 2 redirectors. The point of using odd/even modifiers is to somewhat limit the variance of having all the power to 1 person but like redirector (lightning rod would br more accurate) isnt a strong enough role to do this and use up 2 pr villa slot on this seems improbable to me

I guess i could be fine with lunching someoneone else, put u on visor have taffy ignite and see what happens. Even if i feel i may be at danger of being lunched in this scenario lmao

[Arctic]

I am gonna be real arctic i have no problems believing your stuff about buss driver, stuff like that happens

I just find it super weird for this setup to have 2 redirectors. The point of using odd/even modifiers is to somewhat limit the variance of having all the power to 1 person but like redirector (lightning rod would br more accurate) isnt a strong enough role to do this and use up 2 pr villa slot on this seems improbable to me

I guess i could be fine with lunching someoneone else, put u on visor have taffy ignite and see what happens. Even if i feel i may be at danger of being lunched in this scenario lmao

I can understand this. But to compensate for having 1 role basically split into two, it would make sense if we had 4 town PRs instead of just 3 and everyone who claimed so far is real. Which would really just make me want to kill benneh. First for him arguing to ignite me before I had claimed PR (which would use up one of our MLs) and now him arguing to not let me live to the night when I can interfere with wolf actions

Why are you so sure he's town?

I am pretty sure you are town and may get mischopped right after me today which is something I want to avoid. who else would you be fine with killing today

[Visor]

vote: dya

[Arctic]

Never kill:

didistetter
annika
waza
dyachei

Town:

ladd
pzelda

Everyone else:

Lissa
Visor
Ender
Taffy

Maple/Benneh is exactly 1 wolf and benneh isn't wolf with Taffy. But I'm kinda leveling myself into thinking she's just town or 3p so I'm not sure I care anyway

I recognize that if you kill me then I need to give 1 more villager here. Which I'd probably give as Lissa but I'm unsure

[Arctic]

I don't think the reason for clearing dya is being overstated at all. I have noticed similar posts in previous games and I was right to clear them for it so I'm not interested in going there

[Arctic]

Vote: nebjiamn

I change my mind, I would take Visor as the villager after you flip me and not Lissa. She would probably by my guess as the second if benneh is a wolf

People are spreading the sentiment of "well what's Manti's plan as wolf by playing eod/the rest of the phase the way he did" and to that I propose that the wolf who is playing to win is benneh. Sure he townsided at EOD. While he was already townreading me and Taffy claimed PR. Also after trying to kill annika and stett at the start of the game. If Maple is village, then you guys are giving him far too much credit this game, which is why I struggle to take Lissa's stance seriously (that benneh and maple are 2 villagers) - Visor thinking Maple is town and pushing on benneh seems like a much more realistic worldview to me than Lissa's

Visor's read on me today is townie. I don't know why he hasn't commented on any of the claim shenanigans, but I feel like a wolf would feel somewhat obliged to. And he is doubly cleared if benneh ends up being a wolf

Ladd is the person that people will want to default to after you flip me, probably. But I think he has been townie today, the tinfoil of me and taffy being w/w was townie, the intrigue on why people were townreading dya despite having them as lock town for his own reasoning seems villagery, and I think his stance that "your role wouldn't exist in this setup" is one that makes him look avoidably bad tomorrow compared to the stance that Lissa are benneh are taking because they can very easily just say that I messed up my claim + the sunbae thing and blame me for it. But ladd is giving me a much more fair shake here when it comes to how I could have made my mistake

This is a very biased solve, I am aware. I don't like to solve around my slot because my accuracy decreases heavily when I become part of the narrative. But I do believe that I have the best perspective on the game right now and you should not dismiss everything I am saying tomorrow

[pzelda]

ok like

I'm not exactly calling you out for having everyone town per se but you're saying there's no reason to revisit most of your reads and you're calling everyone except the outed wolf town. That is not the thing you should be thinking when you look at this list, or you shouldn't be saying you still think Ender is town (I know you talked more about them after this but). I know you're like I should keep an eye on him but this isn't written like you actually see there as being a third wolf to find?

I have written a LOT OF LISTS sort of like that one over the years but all of them are like

they understand what they're saying in a way this doesn't yknow, the perspective going on here is jank. they acknowledge on some level or at least don't actively contradict to this level that the chance of SOMEONE on them being a wolf is (in this case 100% from a village pov)

I'm fairly sure you're just town anyway but the like mindset going on here kinda wigs me out.

Also ender's not a wolf with arctic lol. No.

I need to put more work in and revisit some of my reads, but I haven't got time or energy for that this morning. I guess I might get better if I manage to concentrate on the game more this evening.

And ok, guys. I'm dropping my Ender push.

[pzelda]

my reason for thinking taffy was lying is because i heard nothing about anticlaim both when i got my role and afterwards

i'd appreciate if the entire lobby didn't spend the rest of the phase preflipping me as mafia even if we have unanimously decided i am going to die for this

which is.. honestly a pretty big waste. you are killing one of the few PR claims which is actually confirmable lol. i'd even accept being ignited at this point because then i can at least use my action on visor so that he can track someone without dying

i don't understand the arguments for why my role wouldn't exist either. but a lot of people are saying poison rn and it's not only wolves. so y'all are going to have to look at that for yourselves

I was thinking about this and having two half lightning rods and a bomber makes more sense than one half redirector, one bomber and an inventor with a possibility to clear more players. Or does it not?

[nebjiamn]

sorry arctic, i can believe you could mess up the claim but the combination of you firmly playing like not-a-PR yesterday and trying to push-out-a-PR instead and also your solve just kind of sucking (fmpov) makes me want to just unabashedly kill you. i'm obviously town -- and even though i'm pushing you, i legitimately think you would be able to find me here and not just brush things off as 'acting.' its as if you have condensed all of my posting, all of which is supremely villagery (as evidenced by the abundance of players correctly townclearing me), and distilled it into the most uncharitable takes so you can justify pushing me.

i also think lissa's posting last night, while drunk, reads incredibly pure and uninformed, so beyond just having a bad read on me, i think your suggestion that lissa is the yin to my yang is also likely wrong and I just think you'd be able to find at least one of us, but you've instead sunk your teeth into ladd as your sure town from all of this. c'est la vie. imo, ladd seems like one of hte people from your position you should be most sus of tbh

your responses to my suggesting we discuss the optimality of using town-KP on a non-claimed PR in yourself, because you were sorta in my townreads at SOD, just reads like you thought you had a gotcha moment on me when the reality is i had you in the tier of townleans that i did not feel super comfortable about and this was especially true as my starting POE for the day whittled down (sunbae died, my waza epiphany, and taffy re-asserting their claim). i think it is more likely you were amazed you had been targetted with a douse and the realities of you just shrug dying when you were in a pretty monstrous spot otherwise left you spiraling and needing to come up with something you hadn't thought through.

if you're town PR, you saw me write that and got all big in your britches because you're PR who firmly asserted they were always VT and would never play eod1 the way you did as VT and then comically misunderstood your role on day 2 when the realities came crashing down. i just don't believe this is likely even if i think it is possible, especially when i pair it with how you've solved the game from your distinct point of view. i wouldn't and won't flame you if you are town but i would probably ask you in future games to not get so caught up in thinking incorrect reads against you are a bigger sin BECAUSE you're a PR. that's how you read to me right now fwiw, so I kinda just hope you're wolf who's flailing and omgussing instead.

i will give you this: in the world you are town, i think your next most likely hit from your current solve is maple, who you've placed me in a difference check with. this is where possible redemption is for you if town, but i am not killing maple here today anymore because atp we are just testing a 50/50 and we at least have decent confirmation of their role being real in comparison to yours, even if its existence doesn't necessarily confirm its alignment.

if others feel strongly about your reaction my suggestion would be to kill dya instead because I think they have the most equity as a partner for you in addition to just sort of similarly slipping into a poe in the worlds you are town along with the other PR claims are town and then do the spiel ladd is talking about re: mech